Episode’s Transcript

Julio Martinez-Clark (00:03.244)
Welcome back to another episode of the LatinMet Tech Leaders Podcast. Today, our guest is Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer, CEO of IntelVasc Inc.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (01:50.773)
Perfect. So yeah, thank you, Julio. My career started as in the industry. I've spent the last 15 years in health tech. I'm a molecular biologist, but I spent my first period in my career in pharma, in the vortices.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (02:16.981)
and then I transitioned, where I spent, over a decade in the cardiovascular surgery in medical devices and companies like Turumo, where I had a position, as global marketing and then for Numbra as a bus work franchise leader, looking after the MIA markets. And, also I, have different, activities and actions, just digital actions in, Asia Pacific,

Latam and America, United States of America. So I am really, really excited to be here and happy to introduce you our transition from corporate to entrepreneurship.

Julio Martinez-Clark (02:58.954)
Yeah, absolutely. Yes, that's a beautiful transition. And I'm sure there's a story behind the development of your technology. How is it that you came across the work that you're doing at Intel Basq? Please tell us about the company, how it got started. Tell us about how innovative your product is. And by the way, I love your product. So we can talk about it later.

Please tell us about your journey to where you are today with your product.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (03:32.733)
Yes, after spending several years in cardiovascular surgery, as I mentioned in 2020, it was an inflection point because of the pandemic, two things happened. Most of the patients, they were afraid of coming to the hospital and get checked up and make the follow-up checkups, which are really important to preserve this patient safe. But also the COVID has been widely published.

Julio Martinez-Clark (03:49.184)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (04:02.421)
Triggers thromboneogenesis that generated more thrombosis and therefore more cardiovascular events to the patients who suffered the disease. So that was the perfect storm to dramatically increase the fatal cardiovascular events for these patients. And I was constantly thinking myself, I supported over 200 surgeries with vascular surgeons in their labs. And I realized that oftentimes they

ought to operate under an extreme stress because the patient comes from the emergency unit instead of scheduled surgeries. And we thought, well, it be wonderful if we had the sensor that would track these patients and tell us before we receive an SMS, patients or doctors two weeks before we are going to have a heart attack. That was the vision that moved me and made me take the step.

out from the corporate world and in 2023, I incorporated Intel Basq with a former customer of mine, Professor Bismuth and Kyle Fredericks, serial entrepreneur in this field, an engineer. that the Intel Basq, it's basically a company which develops minimally invasive technology, AI powered.

using the gold standard, is ultrasound to monitor vascular occlusions remotely. So we can alert these patients in high risk of suffering, a heart attack or stroke or threatened by limb amputation to know beforehand that they are going to have this problem. So the doctors can act on it and shift the cardiovascular space from reactive to prox.

Julio Martinez-Clark (05:57.046)
Absolutely, that's fascinating. So where are you guys in the development of the technology? you doing preclinical work? What stage is the company?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (06:09.823)
So now we are in R &D. We have completed successfully our preclinical trials in reperfuse cadavers, where we demonstrated that our sensor, which is in here, it's a tiny, small transducer, ultrasound transducer attached to microelectronics. When the sensor is inserted,

Julio Martinez-Clark (06:18.816)
Mm-hmm.

Julio Martinez-Clark (06:31.168)
Hmm.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (06:37.105)
near the vessel for in that case for peripheral arterial disease patients, the femoral artery. It's the sensor it's placed under the skin. And then once the patient is discharged, it's given this scanner. And when the scanner is placed near the leg or the sensor is, they just have to press a button. The scanner is going to activate the sensor and receive the flow velocity data.

Julio Martinez-Clark (06:51.478)
Hmm.

Julio Martinez-Clark (07:05.302)
Hmm.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (07:06.169)
is the goal standard for any surgeon today. So surgeons can anticipate when a vessel's health is declining because of the change of the blood flow, they can call the patient in and do something about it.

Julio Martinez-Clark (07:18.772)
Okay, but the patient has to remember to do the scanning twice a day, three times a day. What's the frequency of the scan?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (07:27.061)
This depends on the severity and how recent the patient has been operated. But let's say that after reconstruction, re-operation, an angioplasty or placed in a stand in the femoral artery, the doctor might recommend them to do it as they take their anticoagulant pills once a day to scan the vessels.

Julio Martinez-Clark (07:47.51)
Mmm. Okay, got it. Okay, Got the piece?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (07:52.233)
But it can be later after that when the risk gets lower, they can recommend him to scan it once a week or even twice a month. So it's not something that requires to be done continuously.

Julio Martinez-Clark (08:04.136)
Okay, okay. And you guys are on what FDA approval pathway? Is this a 510K device?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (08:14.149)
This is a revolutionary device because it has ever done a device that can monitor the vessel's health remotely. But there are other predicate devices that they are subcutaneous sensors, but detect something else like heart arrhythmias. So in our case, because our indication is the first in class, we are going to fall under the nouveau.

Julio Martinez-Clark (08:31.678)
Okay.

Julio Martinez-Clark (08:39.232)
De novo, yes, that's what I imagine. Okay, good.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (08:41.651)
Yes, but because there is such a huge need perceived now there is the perfect storm. The FDA is giving breakthrough designation programs, which means it's a fast track program for companies that they are eligible. And also they get the reimbursement automatically with after the program and the FDA clearance.

Also, the clinical guidelines have been including this year for the first time ever the need of monitoring these patients with this technology. And the technology has been available these days and we speak by us. So hopefully we can revolutionize the cardiovascular space and save many lives along the way.

Julio Martinez-Clark (09:11.786)
Hmm, fascinating. Okay, that's great news. Wow.

Julio Martinez-Clark (09:27.958)
This is great, Andrew. Okay, so just for my own education, the breakthrough device designation, which I understand you guys are gonna pursue, it will allow you to, among other things, to have a code, a reimbursement code, Medicare. Is that a fact or is that in the plans of the government? Because I understood there was discussion about that and that was revoked.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (09:40.542)
Alright.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (09:48.149)
That's right. That's right.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (09:53.621)
Do that.

Julio Martinez-Clark (09:58.014)
and now you're telling me that it's being reenacted. Is that correct?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (10:01.845)
Well, is a program inside. If you get accepted the Breakthrough Designation Program, there is another program called TAP. And this program assigns you a CMS consultant just for the company free of charge to help you to build the evidence that you're required to get.

Julio Martinez-Clark (10:18.815)
Hmm.

Okay, I see. Okay, what's the name of the program again?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (10:26.525)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (10:28.566)
TAP. What does it stand for?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (10:32.757)
No, but I can tell you in a second.

Yep, total product life cycle advisory program. Tango Alpha, papa.

Julio Martinez-Clark (10:41.046)
Excellent.

Excellent. Total Proto Life Psycho Advisory Program. Very good. Very good. All right. This is the reason why we have people like you to educate us all about these new developments. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yes. All right, Andrew. Fascinating story. So let's move on with your plans for clinical evidence. How are you planning to gather the clinical evidence that I think you need for the DeNovel pathway?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (10:47.253)
That's right.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (10:53.735)
I was learning every day.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (11:13.597)
Absolutely. So the first thing, we are a little bit the other way around at other companies. Normally you do animals and then you do first in humans. We are going to do first in humans because our sensor has a very important component of algorithms that have to be adapted for human bodies. And what we are going to do, we have planned to do it. We have done a partnership, we have received

investment by one of our trusted partners is the most important surgical devices distributor in Mexico. So they invested in the company and also they are going to be supporting us with the first in humans because we have been working for many years ago, maybe back to almost 10 years ago with them. I went many times in Mexico. know that the

Julio Martinez-Clark (11:47.936)
Okay.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (12:06.325)
healthcare is excellent, at least the level of surgeons and the technology available in most of the centers, they are really high. And so far, management with the administration also was relatively simple. I won't say that it's simple, but at least it's not unknown for us.

Julio Martinez-Clark (12:09.419)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (12:13.877)
Yes.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (12:29.685)
And we know that we can get approval and have a first in humans at a very high level where both FDA and CMARC are going to accept the results. So this is our first plan. And then we are going to do, we are going to further miniaturize the sensor to place it under the skin of animals. And we are going to do barbariums to assess the long-term response of the device, but at least we have validated.

Julio Martinez-Clark (12:58.39)
tour.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (12:58.633)
that algorithms and the core technologies working in humans.

Julio Martinez-Clark (13:02.826)
Fascinating. Okay, very good. All right, so...

Other than the reason that you just described that the investor is in Mexico, is there a compelling reason why you are going outside of the United States for that person human?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (13:21.833)
Yes, basically there are three main reasons and I have several fellow CEOs that are doing clinical trials in Hispano America. The main reason is the agility and again, if you know the doctors and the partners you want to work with, can get relatively quicker the trial going on.

Julio Martinez-Clark (13:32.597)
Hmm.

Julio Martinez-Clark (13:48.532)
Yes, the approval, regulatory approval, yes.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (13:51.689)
the approval and as well as the approval by the government authorities and the hospital. That's right. That's right. That's one reason. Second reason might be economical. Certainly startups, we are not known to be a very wealthy organization. So we have to be really smart with our resources. So in certain countries of hispan America, like

Julio Martinez-Clark (13:58.366)
Yes, the IRB, the Ethics Committee approval, yes.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (14:19.989)
Mexico or as we were talking, Panama, Colombia, Chile might be very good options, Dominican Republic in terms of costs. basically, also the proximity and in our case, also the language makes way quicker the communication that if you do it, I don't know, in Czech Republic or we do it in Colombia.

Julio Martinez-Clark (14:21.322)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (14:34.133)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (14:42.614)
Of course, yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (14:47.67)
Exactly. And it's also closer to the United States. Same time zone, same hemisphere. Yeah, no crazy distances, long flights, etc. All right. Yes, yes, I agree. I agree. And do you see that this is the general sentiment of your peers or their CEOs? They're always looking for possibilities.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (14:53.407)
That's right. That's right. Absolutely.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (15:01.173)
Correct. Correct. It's way more cost effective.

Julio Martinez-Clark (15:16.758)
for first-in-human experience outside of the United States.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (15:20.659)
Yes, it's really important that you choose the place wisely and you partner with the right companies, like is in your case and bio access, someone who really knows the reality where you want to go, wherever you want to go, that you know the doctors and you can trust that these doctors are going to prioritize your trial. They feel your company.

Julio Martinez-Clark (15:45.91)
Yes.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (15:48.745)
big deal and something important. So they are going to take into account that you can move forward relatively quickly. And also all the nuances of the country. Also, you need the right partner to help you. So I have several friends that they are, as we speak, they are running their trials in Chile, in Colombia, also in Mexico. So it's not unheard of. Also, of course, there are others that they decided Eastern Europe for certain reasons.

Julio Martinez-Clark (16:01.706)
Yes.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (16:18.293)
But again, for all the reasons mentioned, I mean, you want to go to Czech Republic or Latvia. If you are an American company like us, we are in the Bay Area. Well, the flights are 16 hours and maybe 10 hours time zone difference. That's not really handy.

Julio Martinez-Clark (16:30.432)
Yes.

versus a very short flight from San Francisco to Mexico City, which is what, like four hours, something like that? Yeah.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (16:45.333)
Exactly. So it makes sense, yeah, more and more we see obviously that startups, want to be smart with the money because the fundraising and the quantities and the quantities are relatively lower, if you will, in MedTech, that may be a few years ago. And also the requirements are much higher. That means that once you are in the position of making animals or first-in-humans,

Julio Martinez-Clark (17:00.726)
Hmm.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (17:13.947)
Arguably, you might have less resources than before. So now you have to really see where you want to do it and how much it's going to take. And also the speed, you want something to be very quick or as much quick as possible. Obviously, always taking into account all the safety and the ethics and whatever that shouldn't be compromised. But still, with all these minimums, you have to move as fast as possible to make the milestones and keep

Julio Martinez-Clark (17:17.246)
Hmm.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (17:43.509)
the device development going.

Julio Martinez-Clark (17:47.166)
Interesting. Okay. So that's the sentiment that you see in the industry today. The investment sentiment. are requiring companies to comply with more requirements before giving money. But those quantities of money, those amounts are lower usually.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (17:52.821)
That's right.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (18:08.777)
That's right. There are different opinions and you can see different graphics. Carter releases all these data periodically. But I can tell that the general sentiment from the CEOs, fellow CEOs that we talk all the time is to raise the same amount of money is harder.

Julio Martinez-Clark (18:33.205)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (18:33.929)
And normally you do now, you fundraise tight on milestones. Before you did a $5 million seat very easily. Now you might have to do a 1 million tied to this milestone and then 3 million tied to these other milestones. So, you you're from Westman.

Julio Martinez-Clark (18:39.136)
Yeah.

Julio Martinez-Clark (18:48.278)
Hmm, interesting, interesting. Okay. All right. So let's talk about Latin America in general. You mentioned a few other countries. What's your general sentiment about doing studies in other places? What do you hear about Colombia? What do you hear about the Dominican Republic, Panama? Do you have any comments on that?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (19:14.633)
Yes, well, there are different, every moment has its prima donnas. So maybe now the first option might not be the one that was five years ago because government makes things different. Also the geopolitical reasons also, you might change your mind, but you should partner with some expert that knows

Julio Martinez-Clark (19:21.844)
Yes, yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (19:28.18)
Yes, agree. Yeah.

Julio Martinez-Clark (19:34.368)
Yes.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (19:41.237)
how to navigate these things and can assess you. Okay, now, if you want to go to this country, think about at least these other options that are easier to go to. The healthcare level is extremely high and the cost and the logistics are going to be simple to do that. all these other countries that I mentioned, Colombia, Chile,

Julio Martinez-Clark (19:43.798)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (19:49.083)
Yes, exactly.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (20:11.689)
public Panama, Mexico are always go to Argentina seems that it's going to get into this club apparently soon to make things a little bit nimble, but still keeping very high standards. It's a huge country with huge population as well. Really looking forward to have Argentina as an option. so these countries, my feeling and maybe

Julio Martinez-Clark (20:26.506)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (20:32.992)
Yes.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (20:40.659)
because I worked on every single of these countries before. I know that there are centers with healthcare level extremely high, nothing to envy from our neighbors from America. And I trust certain partners in every country, certain doctors and hospitals. I know that they perfect care. So from my perspective, there is no brainer.

Julio Martinez-Clark (20:42.635)
Mm-hmm.

Julio Martinez-Clark (20:52.416)
Mm-hmm.

Julio Martinez-Clark (21:03.318)
Sure.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (21:09.322)
that if you go with the right partner, it's a perfectly viable option to start your practical trials.

Julio Martinez-Clark (21:15.05)
Good to hear. Good to hear. Yes, as you correctly said, I think it's important to have the right advisory team, meaning is country research organization or regulatory affairs advisor locally in the country that can help you navigate the waters of that country and also at a high level to help you strategize the country where you're going to activate a site.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (21:39.796)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (21:44.63)
Because as you said, there are different prima donnas depending on what time of the year it is, but government they have. But there's also the issue of there's no perfect country, Andrew, from my experience. Every country has its benefits and its drawbacks. In some countries you can get

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (22:09.429)
That's right. That's right.

Julio Martinez-Clark (22:14.09)
very fast approval, but the population is very low or the quality of research is low. Other countries you get longer approvals, but you have great recruitment potential, great quality of research. That's usually the case in the bigger countries, as you said, Mexico, Colombia, Argentina, Brazil now is a...

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (22:18.985)
Thank

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (22:41.673)
That's right.

Julio Martinez-Clark (22:41.864)
It's a rising star because of the new law that was enacted a few months ago that will make it a lot faster to get studies approved in Brazil. And Brazil is an ideal country for this type of work. Mexico is also an ideal country. Hopefully, comfort please keeps improving, keeps making things more efficient in terms of regulatory approval times. But I love Mexico as a destination.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (22:55.528)
Absolutely.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (23:09.247)
Peace.

Julio Martinez-Clark (23:11.03)
clinical research, I mean you're right.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (23:12.467)
Yes. And let's be honest. mean, what it's a great experience for one might not be a good experience for the next one. That's why I mentioned that you should know the whole blockchain. should control every step in the way you should control and trust the CRO and trust the doctor and the hospital. should have a minimum understanding of which are the requirements from the government, the ethics committee. should know you shouldn't leave it to someone else to manage.

Julio Martinez-Clark (23:19.048)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (23:26.187)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (23:36.757)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (23:41.234)
Exactly. Yeah.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (23:41.353)
The CEOs, I think, at least a minimum knowledge should be there so you avoid any surprises.

Julio Martinez-Clark (23:48.872)
Yes, you have to be hands-on. My experience with medical device companies like yours is that usually the CEO is very hands-on. He or she travels to the country for every single procedure and is involved in every single phone call, is involved in every meeting because the future of the company depends on that clinical first in human clinical experience, right? So, makes sense. All right, Andrew.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (24:01.045)
That's right.

Julio Martinez-Clark (24:17.014)
Let's talk about what is it that you're going to do with the data that you gather from Latin America, in this case, Mexico, if you decide to go to Mexico, which is probably a good option, depending on how fast you want your clinical data. But regardless of the country, once you gather your clinical data, what's the next step for a company like yours?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (24:38.495)
So this data is going to help us to optimize our algorithms. We are going to learn how they behave in a real human body. We have done something really close, which is externally reperfused cadavers. But with real patients, definitely we are going to test our optimized transducer. We are going to test our fully integrated device for first time.

And this is going to help us to learn a lot to keep the development because we are making a device from big to small. We are going to finally apply microelectronics that are cutting edge in the final device is going to be really small as I was showing before. So to make microelectronics this small, it requires an enormous effort, not only economical, but also know how and time.

Julio Martinez-Clark (25:26.07)
Okay.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (25:34.847)
So we want to make sure that our algorithms and the electronics are behaving as we want prior to go to the next phase. So this first thing humans for us is an absolutely important milestone, essential, because we are going to validate that our algorithms are sending the data correctly. We learn about the flow velocity and how this translates into a vessel occlusion, measuring a seek

healthy vessel with a patient that is in the table in a safe space. And this is going to help us to keep the miniaturization going to make the device that is going to go to animals, which is going to be slightly different algorithms and software. But at least we have frozen the design and the data we need from humans. And now we are going to go to the vivarium where

pigs are going to be free for two, three months, we are going to observe how the device is behaving in this moving animal and how safe it is and how it's behaving. Again, we are not remanding the wheel. Supercutaneous sensors already exist in other indications, so we are really aware of where the device would require some improvements and which materials, biocompatible materials, we have to use.

But definitely the evidence has to be there and that's what we are going to do. then depending on our partnerships and the situation where the company is going to be in 2026, we'll decide whether we want to do the animal experience outside the US and if to repeat our experience in Latin America.

Julio Martinez-Clark (27:23.41)
Okay, I see. Okay, so this experience will be the precursor of another human study. It's not gonna be a first in human, it's gonna be probably an early feasibility study, probably a little larger, probably with another device, with a more advanced version of the device, smaller. Okay, and what about...

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (27:37.695)
That's right.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (27:43.251)
That's right.

Julio Martinez-Clark (27:51.286)
The next step after that, mean, is your plan to get acquired by a strategic? And in that journey, would you be applying for ID status in the United States, a pivotal study in the United States? And in that process, you started speaking with your potential strategic buyers. I mean, what's the plan behind that? I mean, beyond that.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (28:18.387)
Okay. So, yes, we are already talking with several strategic. We are talking with leaders, market leaders with peripheral stands, manufacturers like Gore, Rook, but also we are having conversations and even receive letters of intent from Royal Phillips, which is one of the market leaders also in diagnosis using ultrasound.

Julio Martinez-Clark (28:30.23)
Really good.

Julio Martinez-Clark (28:37.471)
Excellent!

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (28:45.909)
And in their strategic roadmap, they have the remote monitoring for the password applications. So it will be a strategic also for these Royal Phillips or General Electric's different companies. So we are doing that. It's one of the routes we can go after. will see, we'll perceive how easy is the adoption in our commercial limited market release that we are going to

Julio Martinez-Clark (28:52.534)
Beautiful.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (29:15.861)
execute as soon as we have the FDA approval. And whether we want to make limited market release increase a lot the market share because we have learned how to train well the nurses, the surgeons, the patient and the data is reliable and it's working well. And then we'll open the gates to expand nationwide in the US.

Julio Martinez-Clark (29:32.02)
Yes, yeah.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (29:41.653)
Also in parallel, we can grow thanks to our partners in Mexico and other regions and go to an IPO route, which would be the first option. Then the second option, it's keeping the relationship with the strategies which might want to get involved in a pivotal trial, as you mentioned, to get the MBA or get acquired after the first commercial.

Julio Martinez-Clark (29:51.082)
Yes, yes, yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (30:03.614)
Yes, yes.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (30:09.681)
experience and once we have a standardized sales strategy.

Julio Martinez-Clark (30:16.852)
Yes, you are risking the investment of the strategic basically by going all the way in into the commercial phase of the development of the product. All right. Andrew, I think we're close to the end of the show. I just want to ask you any final thoughts, any final words of wisdom for newer entrepreneurs, newer CEOs like you developing advanced medical technologies?

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (30:29.098)
That's right.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (30:47.455)
So yes, no, thanks Julio. I think that the main takeaway is it's be open to think outside the region where you are at. If you are operating like us in the US, in Span America, it's a fantastic region to explore, make cost effective preclinical trials or even your clinical trials, if you will.

But also if along the way you get the right partners who help you to do this process seamless and fast also it's important to keep the eye out since any of these countries would accept FDI approval to see if you want to entertain an early commercialization with any of these countries that we have mentioned. So yeah, it's definitely an option that might facilitate your way up to

Julio Martinez-Clark (31:25.622)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (31:33.546)
Yes, yeah.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (31:39.413)
the next round of fundraising and getting your product out earlier.

Julio Martinez-Clark (31:44.744)
Absolutely, absolutely. You're touching a very good point, which is something that very few companies, very few startups like yours consider, which is to try to generate revenue before you get acquired. Because that will also de-risk the investment significantly. And you can generate revenue before you get FDA approval in countries in Latin America. There are ways.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (32:01.353)
That's right.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (32:05.93)
Yes.

Julio Martinez-Clark (32:14.176)
to get regulatory market clearance in Colombia, in Mexico, Brazil, and you can get experience, commercial experience, generate revenue, and make the company more attractive to strategics.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (32:28.927)
That's right. That's right. I think it's a really good point. And if you can demonstrate this early commercial experience, that makes your company way much more attractive to possible acquirers.

Julio Martinez-Clark (32:42.708)
Yes, yes. Excellent, Andrew. I learned a lot today. Thank you so much for being here. I'm sure listeners are going to learn from you as well. And I look forward to staying in touch. Thank you.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (32:49.245)
Thank you.

Andrew Ortega-Verdaguer (32:55.221)
That was a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.