Episode’s transcript

Julio Martinez: 0:00

Welcome to the Latin MedTech Leaders podcast, a conversation with MedTech leaders who have succeeded or plan to succeed in Latin America. Please subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform. Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast. Amazon Music is teacher Tune in iHeart Radio, Pandora or Deezer . Welcome back to the Laptop MedTech Leaders podcast Today our guests are Gern von Simmons and Andreas Herro . Hey, Andreas and Jorn , great to have you here in the show today. Thank you for joining our podcast.

Andres Herrero: 0:34

Thank you for the invitation. Thank you for the invitation .

Julio Martinez: 0:38

Awesome guys. J is Co-founder of of Care Syntax, a German company that has become the leading developer of surgical intelligence technologies today. Their technologies are used in more than 8,000 operating rooms worldwide and supports surgical teams in over 13 million procedures per year. Recently, ke syntax announced it free rollout of its software to enable hospitals to better manage critical care capacities. During the COVID-19 pandemic, joiner completed his BSC at the European Business School in Ostrich Winkle. Before joining the London Grove Economics for his master's degree, he conducted several years of postgraduate research at Harvard University and the University of St . Gallen. Andreas is Ke syntax, executive vice president and general manager for Europe, middle East, Africa, Asia, and Latin America. Andreas has extensive experience in international sales and occupied leadership positions for I two me , St . Jude Medical Biotronic , and other companies in the medical space. So listeners, we are here ready for a treat. I'm sure this gonna be quite a conversation. We're gonna get a lot from the experience of these two guests that we have today, and this is the first time in our podcast that we have two guests at the same time, so it's gonna be a very animated <laugh> conversation. Alright guys, let's get started. Let's talk about your journey to Latin America, your personal journey. How do you guys get involved with the region?

Andres Herrero: 2:11

Should I start Andres? Yeah,

Julio Martinez: 2:13

Please. Yes.

Andres Herrero: 2:14

Okay. So <laugh> . So my journey to Latin America starts in my very early youth , but it was from our living room in Berlin because my parents did a lot of travel to Latin America. They love , um, the continent , um, both middle and and Latin America. So they went to Mexico to cheetah, Peru , um, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil. And so I saw a lot of videos and pictures and uh , things like that in my youth. And then after graduating from high school , uh, back then in Germany, we still had the mandatory military service, but instead of that you can do a social year. So I did a social year abroad in Mexico. So I was in <inaudible> for about 14 months working in a school in the kindergarten as a a German teacher and an art teacher. Uh , so I have a , I have a lot of connections there actually , um, with the families that I stayed with and was working with. And so yeah, deep relationship with Mexico, but also I had an opportunity and during my studies to go to Buenos Aires, Argentina , um, for three, four months. So yeah, I love to work on the continent, like to be connected to it. And now with my work and with our work at Ke syntax , we had the pleasure of, from the beginning, actually from our start in 2013, 14, to supply our technology to, yeah, Mexico, Columbia , even a little bit, sometimes Argentina or Chile in smaller quantities and in smaller projects. But really excited to be on this podcast and really excited to also , um, with my colleague Andres, have somebody on board who can actually help us navigate and help us greatly navigate that space. Over to you Andres.

Julio Martinez: 4:03

Thank you J <laugh> . Alright , Andres, let's get your story. <laugh>.

Bjoern von Siemens: 4:08

Yes. Uh , as you hear, my name is Andress was indicated. I have this very typical German name, Andres Ola <laugh>. So that also explains already the ties that I have to Latin America. My father was Cuban, my grandfather was Spanish who immigrated to Cuba. And my father had to leave the political reasons the country again, but still was always connected. I have a lot of family over in Latin America and uh, of course , um, due to this ties and my Spanish , um, German companies and , uh, afterwards also American companies , uh, made me work for them in Latin America. And that's why I have , uh, experience in that market. And it was always , uh, my favorite area to work with apart of course from the European area that I'm also living and I'm at home here. So that's my ties that brought me to Latin America and that I had the chance to gather with the Bjorn and care syntax to develop our business in Latin America is a fascinating , uh, task. And it's , um, a very good task. And yeah, we're looking forward to the conversation.

Julio Martinez: 5:19

Yeah , excellent. Thank you guys for that introduction or that explanation of your personal journey to the region. So let's talk about trends in Latin America. What do you guys see from your perspective happening in the region in terms of political, economical, epidemiological, social trends that are beneficial and relevant to our discussion and beneficial for the medical device business?

Bjoern von Siemens: 5:43

If you , do you wanna start?

Andres Herrero: 5:45

Sure. Maybe I can start from the macro level and you can join in. So I think my view on the region is that there's gonna be a lot of , um, dynamic development, a lot of growth, especially in terms of digital solutions. So , um, as we know , um, there's a possibility through digital solutions to increase the efficiency and the quality of care greatly. And I think a lot of the countries, even if they are in infrastructure, not as far developed as , uh, Europe or United States or Japan, and they will use , uh, digital healthcare to kind of leapfrog and get ahead of the curve and, and make healthcare accessible , uh, without compromising efficiency and quality. So all these technologies, you know, 5G smartphones, et cetera , um, they have a lot of growth potential also in healthcare. Um, on the other hand, we also see , um, an increased aging population. So in Brazil there's over 8.5 million people over the age of 70 and 2050. Um , this will grow by over 300% to 36 million, which is, you know, half of the size of Germany and a mid-sized country and in , in Mexico and in other larger countries. And the trend is similar. So I think there will be a lot of dynamic development in digital healthcare and we're , uh, excited to be part of that.

Julio Martinez: 7:14

So Andreas , what do you see happening in Latin America?

Bjoern von Siemens: 7:19

Yeah, and I think in particular, if we look into different, let's say into the different segments, many years ago there was a big, big difference in terms of technologies that have been applied in Latin America versus the other countries. Yeah , if we think for example, in histories of cardioverter defibrillator, this was something that was used very much in the United States and we had very, very few or very little therapy adoption in Latin America today. A lot of the doctors have been educated in the United States . They have been influenced significantly by that market. We have premium institutions in Brazil, in Colombia , in Mexico and Argentina, and before that background and also the digitalization and the information share within the global network is much faster. So therapy adoption of new technologies in Latin America is, or has also in our experience, speed up and what we see, this is gonna be continuous speeding up. Of course the budget restrictions compared to other markets are existing. There is no question. On the other hand, we have to admit that all Latin American countries have, of course in different regions an important private segment of the market. And this private segment of course offers great opportunities to introduce new technologies that have solutions that are innovative. And sometimes it's even easier to access with these new technologies, land America compared to the highly regulated European or US markets where the reimbursement organization is so complex and takes sometimes if you have a new technology, for example in Germany, it can take you easily three to four years before you get reimbursement. You can sell it Yeah, but nobody's gonna pay for it. And there Latin America definitely offers some opportunities and we see this trend accelerating to new technologies. So from our perspective, this is a very interesting option.

Julio Martinez: 9:26

Yes, you are bringing up a very good point I think is because of the nature of the paternalistic systems, healthcare systems in all these countries. For example, in Columbia you can go to the Supreme Court for diapers if you need diapers. I mean anything is reimbursable. The system is set up in such a way that is a constitutional right as a citizen to have access to innovative technologies is does the last resource that you have to save your life. So that's probably the reason why all these countries are easier to access than many other countries around the world. Alright guys, so let's talk about how you guys see the region as a potential market. Are you guys successfully selling in the region? I mean, do you guys see lots of growth potential in Latin America to sell all your technologies?

Andres Herrero: 10:15

So yes, we do. Uh , we actually have very interesting and ongoing conversations with our distribution partners and, and users in , um, a variety of countries. So we have worked in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia , uh, Mexico, Panama, and there's uh , something good ongoing in Costa Rica for us, Dominican Republic and also before the crisis in Venezuela. So there is definitely track record there and there is an overall excitement there and within our group and company to continue growing in the region and to continue growing with the region, especially because we believe that our solutions actually cater very well to the market because they are kind of lean and they are not very kind of capital intensive. We have a lot of SaaS solutions around that can enable , um, even with low budgets to get a high class solution , um, kind of made in Germany and us . So there's a lot of potential for us. And I think at the moment it's more about oftentimes educating the markets , um, oftentimes finding the right distribution partner and working with them to actually convince the hospitals and the clients, the end users that this is something that works even if it's in a remote place and in all kinds of surgical , um, environments and operating rooms.

Julio Martinez: 11:40

Okay . And Andrea, do you have anything to, to

Bjoern von Siemens: 11:42

Add there? Yeah, as you know, we are providing solutions that allow a complete digitalization of the workflow to reduce surgical risk and improve quality. This is always highly linked to efficiency and efficiency gains because quality and efficiency go hand in hand . If you have a complication, you have to make a reintervention, the costs increase. It's a big problem. On the other hand, if you have a very smooth process, a very fast, let's say streamlined operation, procedure, you have less risk for complication. And having said that, of course, Latin America has more increasing tenders that we are seeing for our types of solutions because something that has been adapted as a standard in the US and in Europe for several years already, has now become more and more attractive also for the institutions in Latin America, both public and private. And uh , specifically the private institutions of course reflect. They are very cost sensitive. They are very, let's say, <laugh> driven by , uh, providing value, I mean quality, but in a , in an effective way. And , uh, we see a lot of , uh, opportunities , uh, going on there. We have a , a very big reference project, for example, in Columbia in Bogota, where private institutions have acquired our solutions for all their operating rooms in order to improve patient care. And by this means, I say that we are really looking forward to the next step. That means also to apply more and more , uh, let's say advanced analytics into the operating theater that will allow to further improve care. So in a nutshell, yes , uh, in in the biggest, let's say countries like Mexico, like Colombia , like Brazil or Chile and Argentina, we definitely see a trend in that direction. Yeah , uh, Latin America of course is very variable and you have countries as said during before Costa Rica or Panama, they have advanced solutions. And of course the situation might be different in some other countries. And of course, for example, a country like Venezuela has a different focus at the moment. So it's a very heterogeneous, but the overall trend is definitely positive for our solutions. Yeah ,

Julio Martinez: 14:18

Fantastic. I'm glad that uh , you guys see Latin America as a very attractive region to do business. And that's the reason for the podcast. I mean, we hear talk about how companies are succeeding in the region so that other companies , uh, do not repeat the same mistakes or can learn from your experience and these translate into faster access to innovative technologies for patients in the region. So moving along here guys, let's talk in more details about your entry into the market. How is it that you guys were able to find distributors? Let's talk about the regulatory pathway that you guys have to follow in each country. Can we elaborate a little bit on that? Yeah,

Bjoern von Siemens: 15:01

I will take this over because Bjorn always says to me it's a kind of headache. <laugh> the regulatory pathway except Chile. He loves Chile for that perspective because it's a very easy path .

Julio Martinez: 15:16

Yes, yes, yes. Agree. Agree.

Bjoern von Siemens: 15:19

Um , we are seeing two things for our solution , digital solutions. We have several markets where we luckily inland America have an exemption for the entry of the product. For example, the most prominent one is Mexico. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Where these kind of solutions can be implemented directly. On the other hand, of course in Colombia we have to deal with e in Vima we have to get the registration done in Brazil. Uh , it's a very long process. In Argentina we have the approval for the unad as well. So yes , um, it's a long path. On the other hand , uh, definitely always, let's say we as care syntax see it that way, that it's also an advantage because if you know how to do it well, it protects you from competition <laugh>. Because once you are in, you can sell and everybody who wants to go has to go through that hurdle. And for many companies this hurdle, they don't have the patience, they don't have the time and the expertise to do so. So it is very crucial that you have a good partner that is driving the registration process. And we as care syntax have a mixed approach. In some countries, we are the holder of the registration ourselves and we have an approved importer in other countries where we , uh, let's say as a smaller company you need to mitigate a little bit the risk and the cost. So we rely on distributors to hold the registration and to do the process. This ties us to the partner, but you cannot invest everywhere. Yeah . And uh , that's the past . But basically our experience is that once you have as a company, a good regulatory department as we have, then you provide the documents and then your partner can work. The problem is that many times the manufacturers have to do a lot of work before the local partners can proceed. That's a little bit the , the path, but we see it in most of the markets . It's more an administrative work than a real proof of clinical except that you work with a class three product, maybe that might be different. But on the other hand, typically if you have some data and you have the documentation and the tests available , uh, electromagnetic , uh, safety, et cetera, then the access is um, a little bit delayed. But shouldn't be with a good organization, a too big hurdle.

Julio Martinez: 17:56

Okay. What's your classification of risk in in Columbia , for example?

Bjoern von Siemens: 18:01

One, but still I say still. What do

Julio Martinez: 18:04

You mean still <laugh> ?

Bjoern von Siemens: 18:05

I say still because maybe Bjorn will add some points. We are working on solutions that will go more in classification of class two in the future. But yeah , that currently we're one.

Julio Martinez: 18:18

Yeah. Uh , class one and class two A in Columbia is automatic. It's just a , a notification to vima . In about a week you should get your registration certificate. I'm surprised about what you said about Mexico. Uh, you said we were able to go direct in Mexico, it means that you didn't have to go through cover freeze approval or anything

Bjoern von Siemens: 18:38

For this type of product that we have in digitization , uh, there is an exemption for this product.

Julio Martinez: 18:45

Oh, I see, I see. Excellent. Very good.

Andres Herrero: 18:47

Yeah , that's not only also in, in Latin America, that's also in other countries where usually you have larger barriers to entry. And again, it goes back to the solution being an IT solution, but also the solution being something that really helps with the efficiency, the across the quality. So the regulators are quite keen actually to get this uh , solution installed because it helps them reduce the overall burden of healthcare expenditures as opposed to, you know, the latest and uh , greatest , um, pacemaker that may be or may not be better than the pre previous one, but costs triple so.

Julio Martinez: 19:28

Yeah. Yeah, good point. Um, in terms of uh , competition, who else is in this space in Latin America? Chinese companies, American companies? I mean, who are the players in Latin America?

Andres Herrero: 19:41

Yeah, I think, I mean I can start in um , <inaudible> way in . I think that we do see a similar competition than in Europe. So it's definitely , um, competitors of ours that we, that we see um, in Europe as well are in Latin America as well. So European companies, US companies mind Ray is also , um, quite strong in Latin America, but they're also, we don't really have competitors because we're also supplier to most big , um, OEMs. So if you're talking about, you know , car stores or getting in McKee or Mind Ray , you know, with them we have kind of partnerships. Sometimes we also compete because they use a different solution provider from ours in different regions. But in general, yeah, the competitive landscape is not too different. There are in Brazil , um, when I was there I saw some homemade solutions.

Julio Martinez: 20:38

Oh really? Wow, that's impressive. <laugh>.

Andres Herrero: 20:41

So they developed actually themselves , um, because of the high barriers , um, efficiency and IT integration solutions that were quite sophisticated that I saw there. But other than that there's not a lot of local competition. It's more so the same guys that are around the table than in in Europe or in the us .

Julio Martinez: 21:00

Okay. Talking about Brazil. Brazil is a unique case in Latin America will say, when I was working for Lucent Technologies at Nortel doing business all over the region, I was uh, in charge of a , uh, technical support department. We were providing support for , uh, high complex networks of the largest providers all over the region. And I was quite impressed with the level of engineering in Brazil. I mean the quality of these guys were similar to the ones in the us so Brazil , uh, Mexico, second, Argentina third, but Brazilians had their own protocols, their own developments, I mean quite impressive. And they have a very solid , uh, medical device industry, homegrown industry because of the protective nature of the market and they export to many countries around the world. So guys, let's talk about distributors. How is it that you guys were able to find distributors in the region? What type of distributors are they real for these type of products?

Bjoern von Siemens: 22:00

Well, the, let's say that depends a little bit on the maturity of the market. Why do we say that? Because at the beginning, digitalization has always been linked to infrastructure. Uh , so the companies who provide the equipment for the operating theater itself, tables, pendants, walls , constructions, gases, all these companies are, let's say tied to this kind of business. And typically in Latin America, still the digitalization of the operating theaters is included in these kind of tender processes. So having said that, it was clear for us that we need to look for strong partners who have a good footprint in the infrastructure business. And now as other nature of our product is changing, because we are moving more and more to additional pure software added value solutions , um, that are vendor neutral and allow an interaction with the clinical hospital IT infrastructure across the different vendors, we are now more and more expanding to partner with software IT companies. Yeah . But our starting point and footprint has been that one. So we have an established network of partners in the infrastructure business and we are building up an additional network and step in the hospital IT software distribution and provision business. And typically we are looking, if we qualify a distributor, we look for a strategic fit. So that means a complementarity of products. We think that this is a crucial point that both beers and Bjorn and I always and all the territories try to follow. Um, so if somebody's selling urological products at the moment, <laugh> the link is not so, so strong. While if, if somebody is selling um, a particular solution , uh, electronical medical record, quality assurance , uh, software products, these companies are let's say already in that space and they have already a footprint and then they are interesting for us.

Julio Martinez: 24:18

Okay. In what countries would you say that you are seeing the most complex or sophisticated distributors in the region?

Bjoern von Siemens: 24:30

I think there is a very big particularity. If you, let's say in Mexico you have the rados . So that's of course massive, huge companies who have a very different footprint than in the other areas. I would say accept very few territories then of the world companies that provide and sell the complete solution with all the participant and bundle everything in. This is something very particular. Yeah. Which is also different. And it's important to understand that very diligently if you don't understand that you come up with an innovative product and you will not sell anything. Yeah. And and of course in the other areas I would say of course you have amazing distributors in Brazil, you to the size and you have also very good and professional distributors in Argentina. If they have been successful surviving several devaluations and bankruptcies of the country, then they are very strong. That's a little bit the take from our side.

Julio Martinez: 25:32

Okay. Fortunately you guys don't have to deal with importation processes and, and shipments and things of that nature. I think software is really uh , an advantage over dealing with boxes , uh, shipping across uh , borders. And that's usually a question that I ask , uh, my guests here in the podcast 'cause as always an issue. The other question that I usually ask , um, my guess is about corruption and bribery in Latin America. What's your perception about this in the region? Have you guys been involved with some situations where you have to take a step back or get away from the deal something because there's corruption involved, government corruption or distributor or something?

Andres Herrero: 26:16

So , um, I can tell you that we have not experienced or faced at any point in time any of this kind of activity. And our company and our partners , um, have very, very high compliance standards. You know, we're US based company and so we do not tolerate any activity of um , this kind from our partners or anybody that would potentially do that. And we haven't actually seen anything like that.

Julio Martinez: 26:48

Very good, very good. Your company cursing taxes is in the tender space. I guess. Uh , your distributor have to get involved with government tenders and things of that nature and things may happen in that game <laugh>, so I'm very glad to hear that you guys haven't found any of those situations. Alright , so the next question that I have is about the Pacific Alliance. What do you guys see happening in the integration of Columbia , Mexico, Peru, and Chile? Are you guys familiar with the Pacific Alliance?

Bjoern von Siemens: 27:25

Yes, we are. Of course we know about that project. Uh , however we are , let's say we're observing, it's a little bit like the KNO experience where of course formally there is a connoisseur , but if you really wanna ship the products from A to B, it has nothing to do with the processes in the European Union to ship a product from Italy to Germany. So de facto , this has not been for us so far of impact, but we would be interested to hear your state of that and then maybe comment on that for our particular business.

Julio Martinez: 28:02

Yeah, unfortunately Mesure hasn't really developed or hasn't really been taking the direction that it was originally envisioned in or hasn't really become an integration force in the region, which is something badly needed in Latin America. And even Clinton, president Clinton in the US tried with alca to integrate the region somehow. But it looks like the Pacific Alliance is the first initiative, the first trade block that uh , is OECD supported and has Columbia , Mexico, Peru and Chile as OECD countries and that have international guidelines and policies of best practices. And that is really becoming a trade block of almost 230 million people. That means it's a sizeable population that will compete with other areas in the world. And also the integration of these four countries will make it a lot easier for medical technology companies to do business in Latin America because one thing in the agenda they already started doing this is to integrate the regulatory system of the four countries. And Chile is now changing, it will change very soon. There is a new project, there is a new bill in Chile's , uh, congress to regulate medical technologies so that they are similar to the other countries, Peru, Mexico, and Columbia . So it is definitely a force that it will benefit the medical technology business in Latin America. So I , I was just curious about your take on it and what you knew about that initiative. All right . And that will lead me to my next question , uh, before the end of the uh, podcast here interview. This is probably uh , a question more for join . What would you say to the CEO of um , European or American medical device company or medical technology company that is looking at Latin America as a place to do business?

Andres Herrero: 30:06

So I think it's definitely worthwhile to analyze the market first and to speak to um, knowledgeable people about the potential, the demand before kind of engaging and that's what we did as well on trade fairs and and visits. And then I think it's, you know, for a number of reasons, it's an interesting space specifically if you have something that is not, you know, as hard to register as a new product. So it really depends on the level of the medical device grades to say of your , of your solution. Um , but then it's very interesting place to do business. It's definitely not always straightforward. So you need to have basically and find very good partners and convince them to work with you. And I think there's been the really great job that Andres and our team have done that they found really the best partners for us. And so that's been very helpful. In fact, we're working for example with Dragger a lot in Latin America and you know, they liked us so much in the work that we did in Latin America that we are now looking at more um , and global and US focused and centric collaborations. So it's been from that perspective also big strategic asset and strategic value to the company. So definitely worthwhile. Um , definitely very interesting market and I think, you know, dealing with the local culture and uh , being there and having good times is also something that you can appreciate if you have the chance to do so.

Julio Martinez: 31:37

Yeah. Would you say that it's a fun place to do business? I mean, do you like the people, the culture <laugh> , the travel

Andres Herrero: 31:44

<laugh> ? I obviously the people and the culture because I've been there a lot and, and I go there, I go back there quite a bit both for personal business reasons. Now I think it's great that I combine both and my visit to the Brazilian hospitals was serendipitously around the time of the carnival. So there was uh , of course an accident. So there's a lot of good things to combine the same. And with Mexico, whenever we went there, we also um, had a chance to maybe visit some old friends or go to some nice places. So I think it's a perfect place to combine the both and people are very open, very hospitable, very friendly. Yeah, you have to of course bring some patients in some places, but I think that's the case almost everywhere in one shape or form.

Julio Martinez: 32:32

Okay. And Andreas , do you have anything to add? I mean , what are your words of wisdom for the CEO of a medical technology company? Uh , who is looking to do business in Latin America?

Bjoern von Siemens: 32:43

I think the important thing is to do a good planning where you are going to have a good and a fast market access . And I think the combination of regulatory and reimbursement and local partner is the triangle that you need to analyze very well. In the past, as I said, there are countries like Columbia for our products or Chile that where you have a faster path and you have private institutions a lot in Columbia . So the value proposition to the hospitals is very particular compared to Chile where most of the business, for example, is public. So you need to take this into consideration and make a good plan and then in the segmented approach start in parallel. That's what I would recommend. For example, start the registration. For example, for Brazil, it's the most interesting market, but it will take you easily one to two years to get to the market. So you have to start working in others at the beginning, start the process from the regulatory part, but the business starts in other markets. That's would be my take because then you have successes, motivation and financing, return of investment to go into the bigger markets later like Mexico or like Brazil that are typically from a regulatory point of view except for our product now. But normally the coffee press is a long process <laugh> and therefore that will be my take for the people. But once there is a good plan, there is definitely opportunity. And the last thing I think good follow up . If you have a technical complex product you might consider to put a local person into the territory that supports your distributors or having a good interface and partner that do this on a consultancy basis that really follow up your distributor and can do some uh , local activities because the distributor sell a lot of products and you need to keep the focus for your product.

Julio Martinez: 34:44

That's a great point, Andreas. That's a great point. That's what I call the hybrid approach versus a passive, just let the distributor do their magic. That doesn't always work. So having a hybrid approach where you have somebody in country or in the region constantly working with the distributor who knows the market better than the distributor that can guide and work alongside the distributor and support the distributor. From the manufacturer's point of view, I think that's the best strategy. If the company has the resources for that, I mean not all companies can can afford that. Alright , and the last question that I have here is more for you Andre , since um, you have experience after reading your bio. I mean you've done business everywhere. What would you say is the main advantage of Latin America versus Asia versus the Middle East versus other regions or how does it compare in terms of doing business and selling devices or technologies?

Bjoern von Siemens: 35:39

I think as I said that the initial part of the presentation, I think the reimbursement topic for the private segment is a big advantage strategically for innovative technologies. And you have a kind of uh , let's say a lead that has a lot of resources available to pay and is used to pay for their own health. If you go to Europe for example, even you have a lot of acquisition power, the the most of the people, they are not willing to pay for their health because they are used at the insurance companies paying for their health. And in Latin America, there is for innovative technologies. Definitely an interesting spot. The second point that I see as a huge advantage is the regional clustering. Latin America has territories in cities that are as big as countries in terms of people. If you look to Sao Paulo, you have a , let's say a 100 kilometer diameter where they're living 25 million people. You would need to travel through whole Germany and Germany is very populated, but you need to travel a thousand kilometers to cover that. So that means from a regional structuring, this is very attractive. You have that also in Asia, this you also have in Asia. But I think the mentality for us in Europe, the mentality of the Latin American people is closer to us than the Asian one. More

Julio Martinez: 37:02

Cultural similarity. Yeah,

Bjoern von Siemens: 37:04

Cultural similarity. So this would be my text. I don't know . Birn , what would be your , because you have definitely a huge experience and bigger than mine in Asia, what would be your take on that?

Andres Herrero: 37:16

No, I tend to agree with you. Um, Andres, I mean every region has its specifics. Obviously, you know, Asia is a massive growth region as well with a lot of , um, interesting dynamics ongoing. So yeah, it's not really comparable , um, across the board. But for sure we have grouped also internally in our company the markets according to um , the development of the infrastructure. And as I mentioned in the beginning, actually, sometimes if there's less infrastructure, it's more interesting for us because we can bring that software element in. So yeah, I think , um, you know, across the board we think there's regions that are definitely, you know, less interesting than Latin America. But of course there's also our core markets in Europe and the United States where we have most of our resources and the technology hubs and our client centered.

Julio Martinez: 38:10

Okay. Alright guys, we are close to the end of the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I mean, I think , uh, the conversation was , uh, fascinating from the perspective of , uh, listeners and from my own perspective, I learned a few things, <laugh> that I didn't know before. So it is always , uh, satisfying to be acquainted with people of your caliber who are successfully doing business in Latin America. So thank you again and I look forward to somehow connecting. Again.

Andres Herrero: 38:41

Thank you, Julio. It was a pleasure to be on the show and good luck with everything. Stay safe and healthy.

Julio Martinez: 38:48

Thank you j Hey Andreas. Bye-Bye guys. CIA Julio.

Andres Herrero: 38:53

Pleasure .