EPISODE 38: OSCAR SEGURADO, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER AT ASC THERAPEUTICS

EPISODE 45: JAN SAMZELIUS, CO-FOUNDER, CEO & CHIEF SCIENTIST AT NEURAMETRIX

Jan Samzelius has specialized in quantitative methods for 40 years. Jan invented the typing cadence technology of  NeuraMetrix. He has led a large number of analytical projects, ranging from measuring customer satisfaction to price elasticities to conjoint analyses. Mr. Samzelius has invented many new ways of conducting research into complex issues. His largest project was directing a reinvention of the customer satisfaction measurement system for a telecom. The high quality of the data made the unions accept instituting a bonus system for 9000 people. During the late 90s, Mr. Samzelius led an effort to enable a computer to understand the text. He has been the CEO of six companies, in several cases improving profits dramatically. His experience includes one turnaround and one successful exit. Mr. Samzelius holds an undergraduate degree in economics from the Stockholm School of Economics, graduating with honors and an MBA from Harvard Business School. 

Episode’s transcript

Julio Martinez: 0:00

Welcome to the Latin MedTech Leaders podcast, a conversation with MedTech leaders who have succeeded or plan to succeed in Latin America. Please subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform. Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast. Amazon Music is teacher. Tune in iHeart Radio, Pandora or Deezer . Welcome back to the Latin MedTech Leaders podcast Today our guest is Jan Lio . Hey Jan . It's great to have you here today. How are you doing?

 Jan Samzelius: 0:28

Good, good. Hi, Julio.

Julio Martinez: 0:30

Awesome. Alright , listeners, Jan Lio is Neuro Metrics co-founder and CEO. He has specialized in quantitative methods for 40 years and invented the typing Karens technology of neuro metrics . Jan has been a prolific inventor and the CEO of six companies in several cases improving profits dramatically. His business accomplishments include one turnaround and one successful exit. Jan is originally from Scandinavia and moved to the US 40 years ago. He holds an undergraduate degree in economics from the Stockholm School of Economics and an MBA from Harvard Business School. So Jan is really a pleasure to have you here today. I'm really, really excited to talk about your innovative and breakthrough and paradigm shifting technology, neuro metrics and how can that technology be available to patients in Latin America. So let's get started. Please tell us your journey to Latin America. How did you first get involved with the region, professionally or personally?

 Jan Samzelius: 1:33

So after I graduated from Harvard Business School, like most of my classmates, I went into management consulting and ended up in a firm that had a large relationship with uh , Coca-Cola. So I found myself over the next first couple years traveling I think 15 or 16 times altogether to South America, predominantly to um , Argentina and Chile and Uruguay . But I also made side trips to Brazil and to Peru. Then there was a hiatus for a long time and um , then in the mid to late nineties then I had reason to go back to work then with one of the telecom companies in Argentina and made also six or seven trips or some such thing. And I have really enjoyed my time in , in Latin America. And of course my favorite location, which is I've been four times to

Julio Martinez: 2:30

<laugh> . Nice. I've heard great things about that attraction. It's really a , a marvel anyway. So Jan , what's your overall perception about Latin America as a place to do business, to commercialize medical technologies in your case now and also to conduct trials? I mean, what do you think about the region?

 Jan Samzelius: 2:51

So , um, my data of course is a little rusty since it's been a while since I was there . But what I've been seeing press quite positive and I think as a whole it's um , uh, I have now worked a bit in Asia, a lot in Europe and a lot in the US of course . And in Latin America to some degree, it seems to me easier to do business. It's easier to get deals done, it's easier. Uh, there're not quite as many hidden agendas as there tend to be in , in lots of other places. And it's just sort of much more kind of, okay, a little bit more American in style . So no , let's, let's just get it done.

Julio Martinez: 3:30

<laugh>. Good. I'm glad you have that. Uh , positive outlook

 Jan Samzelius: 3:34

When it comes to the medical business . Uh , I think the region is beginning now to see a lot of the things that the , uh, rest of the world has seen for some time. Uh, rapidly aging populations, you know, higher levels of education and it awareness and this that and the other. Uh, which makes for all of sort of the revolutions that are now occurring , uh, in the US and in Europe and you know, in part propelled by the pandemic. Yes , the pandemic, you know, as we have seen here in the US has made telemedicine, you know, go from almost nothing to like three quarters of the people are now comfortable using it. Hmm .

Julio Martinez: 4:12

Yeah. Hmm , interesting. Alright . Yeah, I think the region is maturing a lot in many senses and uh, I think , uh, is prime for business <laugh>. Alright . You already talked about trends. I wasn't gonna be in my next question, but you already , uh, went I ahead and , and answer that. So the next question is, countries that you've visited in Latin America, you already answered that. That's usually a common question I ask my guests . So let's get right to the details of your work at neuro metrics . Let's first talk about what you're doing with the company , uh, what type of technologies, neuro metrics developing, and after that we can talk about your plans in Latin America. So first, what is neuro metrics ? What problem is it solving?

 Jan Samzelius: 4:58

A lot of this happened as with most startups. It happened by accident. So the team and I had done startup in , uh, data security about eight years ago. We set out to rid the world of passwords. You know , everybody hates passwords and they very fundamentally don't work. At the time, there was a competition here in San Francisco and the winner broke 1700 passwords in 20 minutes. Yeah. That makes us all feel very secure, right? So we fairly quickly concluded that typing cadence, the rhythm by which we all type on a keyboard, ought to be ideal for authentication. It's something that everybody does. It's one of the strongest habits we have. We thought, and uh , people in neurobiology had proven 30 years earlier that it's individual . It turned out that we found it's more individual than that <laugh> . And then we had the dumb luck of finding some data and the data proved in spades that this was incredibly strong for authentication and it was also incredibly easy to use. And just to give you sort of a sense of the dimension of this, so I was looking one day at data from one particular person and one particular key on the keyboard and how long did he hold the key down every time that he hit it. And there were dozens of data points and they were all within 100th of a second . And I went like, how is this possible ? Right <laugh> . And we do it the same way within one of a second all the time. Well, I then looked at other keys, same thing, looked at other people, same thing. Turned out all over the place. It was like that. And that of course was ideal for authentication. So we set out to build an enterprise solution for continuous authentication of employees. American corporations are quite worried about imposters. So for example, let's say that a guy gets a call saying that you know, hey, your wife has been in a car crash, you know, jumps right out of the cubicle and runs for the door, et cetera , et cetera . And of course the call was fake, but the guy sitting in the next cubicle is a crook and then goes over and takes over the login and the whole thing, you know, and those, you know , people, companies are very worried about this. And so we were gladly going along creating this solution. And uh , one day in a presentation somebody said, I bet you that can also be used to detect Alzheimer's. And we all went say, what? <laugh>, You know, none of us had any clue about medicine and none of us had any family connection or anything to any one of these diseases. But of course it sounded intriguing, right? So I then set up to find somebody who knew something about this, who knew something about Alzheimer's. And through some Swedish connections here in San Francisco, I got a meeting with a man by the name of Bob Maley . Bob was the founder of Gladstone Institutes, was the president there for 35 years, has worked the last 30 years in Alzheimer's. And he mentored the 2012 Nobel winner. So very good kind of stature , right ? And I got in there and I started as usual, you know, talking away about how this thing works and what we do and you know, blah blah blah , blah , blah . And after 15 minutes, Bob looked at me , went stop. And he looked at me and he said , you realize we've been looking for this for 30 years . You can imagine how I felt . It was like I just about fell off the chair <laugh> . And so that afternoon we pivoted , we , the team sat down and we talked about this and we said, this is way, way, way more important in so many ways. I mean it's way more important to humanity, you know , and then it said it has to have huge commercial potential . So we put the authentication solution up on the shelf and it's been sitting there ever since. Uh , we may actually eventually integrate it into the medical product , um, but that'll be a few years down the road. But we know that it works. We've shown that it works from then the additional step I'll wanna mention to you is that, so then the first thing to prove really was can our tool distinguish between somebody who has a disease and somebody who's healthy? So we needed to find sample and we found that the fastest way to do this was through the Michael J. Fox Foundation's trial finder , which is in essence a marketplace of volunteers. So we set up a study there and we got permit , ethical permission and this, that and the other and eventually pushed the button and we ended up with 87 patients measured. And there were controls also on Fox Foundation. We also had controls from data we had found earlier. And when we then calculated the accuracy by which we could say that, you know, that person is a patient and that person is a control , I had by then gotten used to that. Um , remember I don't come from the field <laugh> , that 85%, you know, was pretty good. Ours is 99 dot and 34 more nines . And it's really just because of the data structure. It's because it's all binary vi variables because the key is either up or down. So there's nothing fuzzy. It's not like an MRI And then also that these variables seem to be independent of one another. And those two things just make this things go through the roof. Maybe it'd be helpful also if I explain a little bit about how it works.

Julio Martinez: 10:59

Yes, please. And also the actual problem that is solving in the healthcare system, in the mental health sector. Yeah,

 Jan Samzelius: 11:06

So let's start there. Yeah . So the problem , there are actually two problems. Two key problems is one, that diagnosis is very difficult very often because many in particular brain diseases, but also mental health disorders, they are similar. They look alike in the tools that they have to use in the clinic. You know, it's difficult to distinguish these . Another problem with diagnostic is, which is particularly true of Alzheimer's, is that by the time you get a diagnose of Alzheimer's, 50% of your brain cells are dead . There is no medicine in the world that's gonna fix that, just not , which is why so many Alzheimer's trials have failed. And the um , over the last 10 years , hundred 96 outta 400 drug trials in Alzheimer's failed of course costing a staggering amount of money . So it's key for us to be able to ever deal really with Alzheimer's. We must have much, much earlier detection. And so Bob and the other people on our scientific advisory board, they think that since our tool is so sensitive that it can see changes of 100 of a second. We ought to be able to see Alzheimer's years, maybe even decades earlier than today. And then we could deliver a sample to pharma where only 5% of the brain cells are dead and not 50. And then they have a chance. The second big set of problems is really in monitoring of these diseases. And this problem, of course is exacerbated by the, typically the doctor sees every patient. Very rarely in most countries it's 2, 3, 4 times a year. That's not much for many of these diseases. Parkinson's maybe in particular, they really need to be micromanaged. There are just many changes that can occur even within a day. And of course if you don't see the patient for three months , you can't do any of that. And so with our tool, a patient that's being monitored and the doctor then changes the same medication on that person today, he has no feedback loop whatsoever. But with our tool, he can go into the back end of our server three weeks later and can see whether it worked or not. And that's really the fundamental problem. Now then the good news here is that this is incredibly easy on the person and incredibly easy on the doctor. It's software and internet only. So there's no hardware component, there's no gadget that you need to have, you know nothing. And so as a patient, you get an email from your doctor or from a researcher or from us and there's a link in there, click on the link and two more clicks and then the measurement will already have started. And there's no test , there's no nothing. We just measure typing cadence for every keystroke that the person does . This will also, and it just sits in the background and records. And um , this will also lead to that . Within 10 or 15 minutes, people will have forgotten that it's there. Then every so often the software installed packs up a file and sends to our server, a server that adds the data point to that person's chart, which the doctor can go in and see at any time . And I've actually tried this myself. We never know anybody's name or anything. All we know is a number and that number is something we give them. I've actually tried that myself. So I have experienced that I simply started to go through a number of people's charts. I could go through 50 charts in 10 minutes because most of them , you know , these diseases move very, very slowly , right ? They move in particular Alzheimer's moves very, very slowly. And so all you do is if you just see a chart that sort of looks stable and relatively flat , no trend in it , you know , flip to the next and there you go . Next, next , next, next , next, next, next, next. And oh wait , that one . So it's extremely efficient. I mean if I was a physician every morning, I gotta the office, I would just take, you know, the 10 people that are coming in today . And I would go flip , flip , flip , flip , flip . It's also leading to that some healthcare systems . We've talked to some in Sweden about this , that they're gonna totally rearrange the rules for how these patients are are managed . You know , somebody who is in our chart completely stable and no fluctuations, nothing wrong. There's no need to have them come into the clinic. You know, it takes time for the doctor. It's a hassle for the person. And it's much better to simply say, you know, to spend the time with the patients that really need it. The patients that do have a chart that looks terrible, right? They've also suggested that it could be used for , uh, prescreening say of Alzheimer's. So uh uh, people when they get into their sixties and they begin to become a little forgetful, right ? And they immediately think they have Alzheimer's <laugh> . So they call up the clinic and say, I'm sure I have Alzheimer's and they wanna come in, right? And then 95 to 99% of the cases , the doctor says, no, you're just getting old. It's just perfectly normal. Right? If you prior to that meeting says simply, okay , before you go have a meeting, you need to have this tool installed . And you know you need to be on that for a couple, three weeks. Then without seeing the patient, the doctor can then say, well I don't need to see that one. I don't need to see that one. I don't need to see that one. Yeah . Again, spend the time with the people that really need it.

Julio Martinez: 16:40

And Jen , uh, the World Health Organization has declared mental health disorders as a public health world problem, right? And they issued some new policies to fix it and they're kind of sort of mandating or suggesting that government take action on this. So that's a bigger problem. Is that also tailwind for your technology all over the world, including Latin America, right?

 Jan Samzelius: 17:07

Yes. Uh , I mean the patient numbers in mental health is at least two orders of magnitude bigger than they're for brain diseases. And there's some rather dramatic changes there happening. Mental health has had some of the methodological issues similar to what CNS diseases have had in that uh , you know, the tools aren't sharp enough. You know, I mean the professor at the Kalinsky in Sweden, he told me that it typically takes four attempts for a bipolar person to get the right diagnosis . Four , that means the person will gone years before that and will have taken all sorts of medication that didn't have anything to do with it. You know , et cetera . And an incredible amounts of money, right? And the combination now of our technology for then having much sharper and earlier detection of it and to be able to monitor the effects of actions. That coupled with there are some other people that have developed really good tools for very exact diagnosis and yet others that have developed what seems to be tools, digital tools that would actually for treating some of these mental health problems that also are now beginning to show promise. There are 300,000 mental health apps . <laugh> , I think all of two of them actually have FDA approval by now . So there's extremely little evidence out there, but we're beginning to see some things, you know, that may actually be up to par and may actually really help the patients. That's the real problem in both of these areas. The amount of help that the physician or the therapist can do it is in reality not all that much.

Julio Martinez: 19:05

Okay. Hmm . Let's talk about the breakthrough designation of the FDA that you guys uh , gained .

 Jan Samzelius: 19:13

Yeah , so , uh, two years ago we then applied for a breakthrough device designation and we became, a year and a half ago we got the designation. We became I think company number 112 or some such thing that has actually gotten the designation and it's very helpful, extremely helpful. I mean , first of all , it's a big sign of approval , um, because they have not done quite the investigation. They would in order to give us permission to actually market the product, you know , but they've done a good bit of it. So it sort of really works as a stamp of approval . And it really is something that people recognize. Look at our website as the first thing it says, but they also then provide sort of on a , as of right now, then we sort of get a little bit of priority treatment. Uh, you know, there's certain things that folks that have breakthrough device designation can get that others can't. And the uh , CMS, the organization that pays for medical care for senior citizens, they have also issued a ruling that says that products that have breakthrough device designation and have permission from the FDA , they will automatically reimburse it . Which is of course a huge breakthrough . That alone for us in the US for Parkinson's is a 75 million opportunity . Wow.

Julio Martinez: 20:37

Wow. And you already have approval in the European community CE mark approval in Europe, right?

 Jan Samzelius: 20:43

We have CE mark in Europe. We'll have to , unless they change the rules again , we'll have to move it the next year. It'll expire in May of next year. But they've moved it once and it wouldn't surprise me if they're gonna move it again because the backlog, yeah , the capacity just isn't there, you know , they have gotten more so-called notified bodies by now, but it's nowhere near enough. And then they're fearing I think rightfully so. They're fearing that thousands of startups will go under if they can't get approved.

Julio Martinez: 21:16

Yes. Alright , Jen , so let's talk about Latin America. I know you already doing some efforts in Asia, you are doing efforts in Europe, of course you're doing trials, you already have a paying client in Sweden . I understand you are doing efforts in the US through the FDA . So what about Latin America? What do you have in mind? What do you envision in Latin America

 Jan Samzelius: 21:40

As a , an entrepreneur? The thing you wanna find is you wanna find the easiest markets to get to <laugh> and the Asia tends to have longer lead times. And that we're seeing that with what we've done in so far in Singapore and Malaysia. And not to mention Japan. Europe is eager to do new things either to try new things , but it's also not only is healthcare very bureaucratic in Europe, it's also different bureaucratic regiments all over the place. And so , uh, I mean for example, I'll take Sweden as the example. So in Sweden we could get approval to sell the product and get it out in a region in Sweden, but there're 23 regions, you know, on a population of 10 million.

Julio Martinez: 22:33

Wow. Unbelievable.

 Jan Samzelius: 22:34

If I can get one of the regions in Germany that equals the entire population of Sweden. And so my sense now, this is based on my Aon , your advice, but also on sort of my earlier experience is that it can be easier in Latin America and product basically seems to work for all languages in all alphabets, you know , so that's no constraint. And for us to , we have currently four languages supported and for us to add another one is by now a relatively minor effort. And also in Latin America you have a more concentrated population. You know, Buenos Aires is half the population of the country. You know, Rio and Sao Paulo is a huge part of Brazil. And that's really what we have to look for in order to be efficient with our sales efforts, right? We have to find the biggest clinics, the biggest, you know, population centers and start there. That's also what's leading us to be very cautious about , um, mental health in uh , the, because it's extremely fragmented. You know , there are tens of s hundreds of thousand of psychiatric basically one person . And there's no way we as a startup can deal with know we carlin's got , we're getting organized now to basically measure all of their bipolar patients. That's 800 patients. I don't think there are many places in the US that would have that many bipolar patients.

Julio Martinez: 24:17

And what about the revenue model?

 Jan Samzelius: 24:20

So the revenue model is quite simple. It's all basically a subscription model. So we decided very early on that the right way to charge for this is basically , uh, you know, a number of dollars per month or per year. And then a little later we then got into the issue of reimbursement in the US And uh , this is a topic that there are a lot of people that make a good salary based on <laugh> this issue. And in order to be reimbursed you need to have a reimbursement code . And one might have thought that the FDA or CMS or somebody would be the ones putting together those codes , but no , it's the American Medical Association that can then take some time to do. And we had the incredible luck of that. We found a code we can use that would allow us to charge $112 per person per year. And given the fact that, you know, this is just software and internet , right? So the marginal cost is basically zip, you know, that's fine. So the standard that we have adopted, we dunno if it'll hold everywhere, but you know, the standard that we adopted is a hundred per person per year, which is, you know, less than a normal lab test , you know, or anything. And the , uh, and we haven't gotten any resistant within the medical community or sort of like the typical university medical center kind of clinic. You know, to them that's nothing. They send people to an MRI for three to 5,000 , right? <laugh> a hundred bucks is absolutely nothing. We don't really see that changing. We don't see any need , need to, we certainly don't see any need to , um, for the foreseeable future to charge more than that. And um , we may have to in certain countries to do sort of other kinds of deals, you know , who knows? We'll see.

Julio Martinez: 26:09

Okay. You're flexible enough , uh, to adapt to different markets. Alright , so let's talk about the progress that you have made in Latin America so far. Where are you in the region? What countries are you looking at? What investigators, what key opinion leaders are you looking at? So please tell us about it.

 Jan Samzelius: 26:32

Uh , so we're predominantly currently looking at the Columbia . So we've had a first meeting with one of the more known neurologists in and , uh, working on setting up do a sort of an observational study or something. They're sort of customers or the physicians involved. They tend to like to, to do that first, to sort of get a feeling for how it works and , and is it acceptable by the patients . And we don't mind at all. It gets us a foot in the door and it gets us , um, a bit of sample. It gets us to make sure that we can ensure that our instructions and FAQs and everything else, you know , works in that language. And it normally doesn't take very long, you know, to get the ethical commission with some, we cannot be hurt by a piece of software. It's just basically impossible. <laugh> , you know, windows cannot reach out of the , your machine and , and <laugh> do something to you. So getting the ethical permission tends to be simple , tends to be short. The pandemic has increased the lead times a bit, but not all that much. And then with our tool , since we get a lot of data by person, so for example, in the uh , original Parkinson's study, we uh , measured everybody for three months. We got an average of half a million data points per person. So we don't really need to measure people more than a month or two to sort of , to show that that it works . And we have by now, by the way, so we have , uh, data on a bit over 600 people and we have collected about three quarters of a billion data points across eight 10 diseases , some such thing . And then Columbia we're also discussing an initiative on the mental health side to basically try to sort of through new technology to then sort of streamline and consolidate entities , uh, in the mental health business so that they're not as maybe inefficient as, for example, they are here where they're basically, you know , one person, one person, one person, one person, and you know, and you don't have any common systems, you don't have any common branding. You don't, you don't, you don't , don't , yes . Yeah .

Julio Martinez: 28:44

Hmm . Okay. Very good. Very good. So with the investigator that you have identified in Columbia , the idea is to have an early adopter of the technology so that he feels comfortable with the technology, with the science behind it, and then he can speak about the benefits of the technology on patients on scientific meetings and thus a good way to get the academic and scientific community involved. And then you're gonna have demand driving the business, I mean, from the actual prescribers. Yeah.

 Jan Samzelius: 29:21

Hmm . Yeah , exactly. And so I might mention two names there then. So Bob Mely , who I've mentioned before, you know , he is on the , uh, America Academy of Sciences and you know, his name opens just about every door . And then we had , uh, we have several people in Germany, one of which is by , he is one of the world's leading authorities on Huntington's . And we just concluded a , uh, study on Huntington's that actually shows that we, our tool can tell that the disease has already begun when the clinic cannot see a thing. And they're very excited about that because then they can start medication earlier . And it's the same with Bernard. It's such a big name. Even though Huntington's limited field, he is kind of like known in neurology all over Europe and probably also over here, but certainly in Europe we are trying to do the same thing in Latin America. And then we sort of , we get the first one or two people, right? And then you just sort of, yes , you go from there.

Julio Martinez: 30:23

Absolutely, absolutely. No, I'm , I'm really thrilled about the possibilities in Latin America and I am also thrilled about the exchange of knowledge and science between , uh, a country like Columbia in your company and the scientific advisory board that you guys have. And if you look at these countries in Latin America, that's really what's gonna , uh, change these countries from being , uh, regular exporters of coffee and minerals to exporters of knowledge. Those collaborations or those links with people of the caliber of the scientific war that you have assembled is really what's gonna drive the economies of the future of this country. So I'm really, really happy as a Colombian to see companies like yours involved in Latin America, specifically in Colombia , my country, and

 Jan Samzelius: 31:13

Julio. The thing that really helps here also is that if you look at a lot of things that are used in medicine, including in these two categories, most of these things are for the typical person difficult to understand, right? You know , try to explain to somebody how an MRI works, right? <laugh> and uh , this technology, first of all, this is something that just about everybody's engaged in, right? There are very few people that don't use a keyboard. And secondly, it's very, very simple. Everybody understands this in just a couple of sentences. And what it is , is that this is the strongest habit that we have. So it's completely hardwired up in here. Now if this gets attacked by something, the wiring will begin to break. And how fast it then begins to break depends upon what the disease is . So for example, in Alzheimer's, it breaks very, very slowly and in very small increases . And some of the mental health disorders, it might break faster. But that's it. And that's why you know, everybody in two sentences, it's the best elevator pitch I've ever done in my years of startups. <laugh> , it's just, I once had a , um, I don't know how many of your audience knows who , who John Wayne is , John Wayne , you know , the most famous western movie star in the us . I once got into an elevator and one of his sons was there standing in the elevator. So it was just him and me . So I had two floors to explain what we do and I got another 30 minutes and he was so excited that when I then ran into him again at the valet parking , he was enthusiastically talking to some other person about what he had just heard from me. <laugh>,

Julio Martinez: 33:03

He was pitching your technology to somebody else . <laugh> .

 Jan Samzelius: 33:08

Exactly. He was pitching my technology <laugh> . But it's really wonderful because I've done some things in the past, you know, such as copy protection of software , and it's very complicated for people to understand this thing is the best. This is just the best.

Julio Martinez: 33:26

Excellent. Jan . Excellent. I wanna say thank you. And one last question, I mean, and this is a question that I usually ask my guest , is about your perception of Latin America as a culture, as a place to have fun. I mean, what do you think about the business environment, about the people, the culture of the region?

 Jan Samzelius: 33:46

Oh, I really love the place. When I was gonna Buenos Aires all the time, the firm I was with had just opened an office in Buenos Aires. And if I had been single at the time, I would've moved the easygoing nature of the whole thing, you know , and the level of culture in particular in , in Buenos Aires, beautiful nature all over the place. And you know , absolutely easily

Julio Martinez: 34:09

Excellent. And I'm really glad to hear that , uh, positive , uh, feeling about Latin America. And certainly Buenos Aires is one of the most beautiful cities in Latin America. I love it. It's one of my top cities in the region. Alright , Jen , thank you so much for being in the show today. I really enjoy our conversation, I'm sure listeners did as well. And I look forward to doing something , uh, big together in Latin America in Columbia .

 Jan Samzelius: 34:35

Sounds great. Thanks for having me.

Julio Martinez: 34:39

Bye . Take care . Thank you .