EPISODE 50: JHONATAN BRINGAS DIMITRIADES, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER & CHIEF COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER AT FINNISH MEDTECH NUKUTE

Episode’s transcript

Julio Martinez: 0:02

Welcome to the Latin Med Tech Leaders podcast, a conversation with med tech leaders who have succeeded or plan to succeed in Latin America. Please subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform. Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast. Amazon Music is teacher Tune in iHeart Radio , Pandora or Deser . Welcome to the Lata Mex Leaders Podcast. Today our guest is Dr. Jonathan Briga from the Netherlands. Dr. Briga is a physician who has worked in the implementation of medical technologies, digital health, and medical devices in some of the top medical centers worldwide, such as the Mayo Clinic, the Cleveland Clinic, the Panama Clinic, the Hong Kong University Hospital, the A-M-C-U-M-C, Amsterdam and Meridia . Others, his health , Cheryl leadership positions, including medical director, chief medical officer, and is currently the Chief Communications officer of a Finnish MedTech company called nte . How do you pronounce that name? Uh, Jonathan <laugh>

Jhonatan Bringas: 1:12

In Finnish is supposed to say Kuta .

Julio Martinez: 1:13

Oh , Kuta . Okay. <laugh> . So Kuta is a respiratory sleep medicine wearable company developing diagnostics and digital health tools. Dr. Briga has postgraduate education in public health, business strategy, and digital healthcare solutions. So, Jonathan, it's great to have you here today. Welcome to the show.

Jhonatan Bringas: 1:33

Thank you, Julio , very much. I'm very happy to be here.

Julio Martinez: 1:36

Awesome. All right , let's start, Jonathan, with your personal and professional link to Latin America. You have a very fascinating personal story, so I'm sure listeners wanna hear about it.

Jhonatan Bringas: 1:51

Well, just really fast to make it short, I am Peruvian, originally born and raised in Peru. I did have a little time of my life that I spent between the US and Peru. I did my medical education in the Caribbean, and I went back to Peru to do my specialty. And it was until then that I was basically working on essential medicine as a provider. And uh, at some point I started to work towards more the business side. And I , uh, when I moved to the Netherlands, I went completely on the medical technology side. So I've been working for different companies already from an early stage in 2014 when I moved to the Netherlands, companies that did hematology, I did some genetical solutions, and it was until the company called Lodi that I held already a position that was global, where I focused my attention , uh, pretty much in Latin America. I already knew and met many doctors from Latin America. I already had many connections there, and it was just natural for me to go and use all that network and those connections. And of course, my knowledge of Latin America to implement technology in those countries. Since then, I've been working already for more than five years in implementation of , uh, medical technology in different countries , uh, from Chile to Mexico. And of course I've also been working in the US and Canada. But for the sake of this interview, let's, I will just discuss Latin America.

Julio Martinez: 3:07

Excellent, Yan . Thank you for that. All right . So what trends do you see happening in Latin America that are relevant to our discussion today from the epidemiological political, socioeconomic , uh, view?

Jhonatan Bringas: 3:20

So I think that COVID-19 pandemic has opened the eyes of many countries in the political side. Um, I think they realized that availability of medical services in Latin America was not the best. It was very centralized. So that centralization has played a very, let's say, impactful factor in how the infection has spread and the amount of casualties that have arose in the countries in Latin America. So I think in that case, seeing this situation in the last year and a half and , and also a little bit prospecting, how it's gonna happen or what's going to happen in the next two or three years. I think the countries in Latin America will shift a little bit towards digital solutions. And in the case of med tech , probably they will start to implement more technologically advanced devices that can help them prevent, I think prevention will be a key , uh, in many countries in Latin America, if we want to keep sustainable in the case of medical services. Also, because the socioeconomic, as you said, situation has been impacted by COVID-19 , very much so. When we use our resources, we have to be smart. So how do we use our resources to lower our costs per year? That's something that many governments will consider and ask themselves in the moment that they implement medical technology. I'm hearing already, like the door is knocking all the time here , um, embassies from Latin America asking me questions. And I think it's just because of that. I'm very hopeful for this new type of thinking, let's say.

Julio Martinez: 4:45

Okay, very good . So what's your perception of Latin America as a place to commercialize medical technologies? Uh , Jonathan

Jhonatan Bringas: 4:53

As a place of commercialized, you said?

Julio Martinez: 4:55

Yeah. Commercializing medical technologies , selling medical devices in the region. Yeah.

Jhonatan Bringas: 5:00

Um, I think it's, it has been a very tough region. I think the medical culture that comes from university, you know, just medical professionals, they are very keen on keeping their traditions, and it's something that creates a little bit of an obstacle in the case of developing or implementing new technologies. And I think adoption of these technologies are key in these countries. But because of the COVID-19 , again, I see that that's going to shift. Many doctors that didn't believe in digital health now are doing telemedicine in all these countries, from Costa Rica, Mexico, to Peru, Chile , uh, Bolivia. So I don't doubt that this will change. In the case of how it has been so far, what I just said, they putting a lot of barriers. And then there's also the national bureaucracy from these countries that are making it very difficult. There's, and every country has a different regulatory aspect, and so if you are a company that wants to implement technologies or expand in Latin America, you can't see us as a block. Chile has one regulatory , uh, system, and Peru has another one. Ecuador has another one. You know, some of them are very easy to navigate, like Chile. Some of them are super complicated like Brazil. So we have to be very smart in the case of the companies, and I think that that's also one limitation for the implementation of technologies in latam .

Julio Martinez: 6:16

Yeah, well said. Yeah, reimbursement is also an issue, which is really key for the adoption of newer technologies. I mean, if the system doesn't have a code for the product, then you have to convince the , the system to justify the use of that technology on a patient, or you have to get into the private insurance sector. Yeah . Which is a sliver of the whole big pie. Yeah. So let's , um, talk us about Latin America as a place to do business. I mean, what's your overall perception as a region to , um, to do business in general? I mean, is it fun? Is it boring? Is it, is it nice? I mean, as how , how does it compare to Europe, to the United States , uh, people and meetings , uh, things of that nature?

Jhonatan Bringas: 7:01

I think that I've had really good experiences in Latin America. I can tell you the countries where I've been very successful in the short term and the ones that I've had to really work very hard and put a lot of attention to have some success. For instance, Chile and Colombia and Panama, they are countries that are really early adopters of technology. They love to know what's next. So when you go there and you go to a conference or a congress in these countries and you meet all these doctors, they're very eager to know what's next. Even the people in national systems and of course the people that work in private sector. So it's really cool to go there. It's really a breath of fresh air to go to these countries for congresses conferences and be able to discuss with the providers, but also with the insurance people, with the business people in these countries. I've had some different experiences in other ones. For instance, I've had some frustrating experiences in my own country in Peru where I think the situation, it has a very big barrier on adoption of new technologies, but I think that the Covid is changing their minds as well. But before that, it was kind of difficult to justify implementing technologies. I remember a conversation, it was very harsh, where cardiologists in one of the biggest cardiac centers in Lima, where I was explaining them why it is important to do cardiac rehabilitation, implementing ECG to it. And , um, they didn't believe in that until then . So I think it was something that I had to really like be an advocate of this. But , um, in general, I think Latin America is a challenging place for the people that love international business. It is no different than doing business in the Middle East or in Southeast Asia. It's the challenging region, but it can give you really great success if you do it strategically.

Julio Martinez: 8:37

Okay, good. So let's go country by country where you have the most experience. Um, Jonathan, let's start with Peru because I guess , uh, you know, to me, I've been to Peru a few times and I love the country and the food and the people. It is , it is just nice, but it's not a country that I hear from my clients as a first place to enter Latin America. They usually want to start in Mexico or in Columbia . Once in a while. I hear Argentina, Brazil, of course, everyone that wants to be in Brazil. But once they learn about the regulatory hurdles and the price of getting the registration and the time it takes , they're like, no, let's start somewhere else. But , uh, Peru, I almost never get an inquiry for Peru. So let's talk about Peru. What do you think about the country? What do you think about the medical business , uh, sector in the country, et cetera ?

Jhonatan Bringas: 9:28

So Peru is , um, very difficult place to start business with new technology. There is a regulation that really is a little bit of a old fashioned regulation. So if you want to import in Peru, you need to have a company called <inaudible> , which is like a pharmacy. Although you're importing medical technology, your company has to be registered as it was in pharmacy. Then you have to have a , actually a chemist that has to be the medical director of this pharmacy in order to import medical technology, which makes no sense, you know? So , uh, that's just the first step. You have to have a place where you do storage of your medical technology and you have to put them there so they can inspect it. Even though you could probably bring it from the airport directly to location or from the port directly to location. You have to have this place and it has to stay on a closet or like a place of storage for some time. And this storage place has to have a registration as well. So it's a very complicated way of playing this. It has supported a monopoly for some time. And then after that, you still need to register your devices that it's according to the class. So that's basically according to the class in the us . So class one plus two, plus three , uh, and then it costs an amount of time. Uh , they ask you for many questions, and usually that process is very tedious and challenging. When that finishes, then you can finally import your product and you can sell it in a market. The problem with the market is that the market wants very cheap prices, but by the time that you can already import your product, you already made a huge expense that you have to probably justify in the matter of, you know , adding a plus to the price or a margin, which they don't want. So that makes it extremely difficult. You know, you have to have really, really very experienced partners in Peru in order to make your product succeed. Um, there are companies that create their own companies in Peru, for instance, Phillips has their own Phillips , uh, Peruvian Phillips , uh, which I think is an , it's a distributor, I'm not really sure, but I think it's a distributor that has been acquired. And in that way, then they can pretty much control the importation. Also, their devices are extremely expensive, and it's just a market, so it , it's not very difficult for them to succeed. But for small companies that have innovative medical technologies and they are just trying to risk free , go to Latin America and expand in a strategical way, Peru is not gonna be the place of choice, unfortunately, because I think they would pretty much profit from new technologies.

Julio Martinez: 11:55

Yeah, that's unfortunate. So , um, how long does it take to register a medical device , uh, in Peru ?

Jhonatan Bringas: 12:04

If it's class one , it probably will take you around three months. Class two, probably around six months, and class three, probably nine months. But that's , um, optimistic calculation. So it's probably a little bit more than that

Julio Martinez: 12:16

For , yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. And the population is fairly significant, right? It's like 40 something million people?

Jhonatan Bringas: 12:23

Yes. It's uh , 38 million. It's almost almost arriving to the 40. Yes. You have centralized places. So Lima has , uh, I think around 10 million people in the capital .

Julio Martinez: 12:34

What's the second largest city?

Jhonatan Bringas: 12:36

I think? rpa .

Julio Martinez: 12:37

Rpa , yeah. So what's the medical, I'm sorry, the healthcare system in Peru, like ,

Jhonatan Bringas: 12:43

Uh, so you have three systems, the Universal Healthcare System, which is controlled by the Ministry of Health, and that one is called mea . So that is basically free for everyone. And , um, everyone in Peru can go, of course, it has its flaws. It's, it's not a lot of hospitals, there's not a lot of beds. Uh , there's a very big amount of people. So if you are going to be seeing a doctorate mea , you're probably going to be waiting for a long time for consultation. Now, there's also other system which is called , uh, alute , and that one is a insurance that you pay when you are employed. Uh, so it's still national, but it's only for people that are employed. And then that one , uh, you pay for and it's a little bit better than Mesa , it's semi-private because it's subsidizing, you're paying yourself. However, it's not a private insurance.

Julio Martinez: 13:33

So it's controlled by the government. It is re regulated by the government. But you go to a private hospital, not a , a government owned hospital.

Jhonatan Bringas: 13:40

Yes, exactly. But these are hospitals that are also from this system, which is called salute . So you still get a lot of people because people that let's say , uh, are fishermen to the people that are , uh, CEOs, everyone has salute if they have a contract. And then you have the third one, and the third one is a completely private one. And you have different private healthcare insurance companies. Some of the biggest ones are Reac , uh, Pacifico. And then you have private hospitals that some of them belong to the insurance companies, and some of them are just a network of private hospitals. And in the case of private hospitals, you can have the most amazing top of the shelf hospital that is comparable to a Swiss private hospital, or you can have the lowest of the lowest <laugh>, you know. So basically it's a very big and broad spectrum of private hospitals that Peru has been finding challenging to control and to audit. And they always find new centers that are maybe going a little bit out of the legality and they close them. So it's a very difficult position, but I think they're developing the way they do their healthcare accessibility, and they have been developing their economy as well. So I don't doubt that in a couple of years, maybe three to five years, they will have this a little bit better in control and they will have better , uh, rules of the game for these three systems.

Julio Martinez: 15:03

Sure, yeah. So is there another system for government employees, like the military teachers?

Jhonatan Bringas: 15:11

The military, they have their own system . So each military branch has their own system . So the military has theirs. So Army , uh, the Air Force has their hospitals, the police has theirs. So the three military branches have their three systems.

Julio Martinez: 15:27

<laugh>. Oh my God . We're talking about almost 10 systems <laugh>, if you really count those little ones.

Jhonatan Bringas: 15:34

Yeah. Yeah. I don't count them, but I think I should probably. Yes.

Julio Martinez: 15:37

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I guess the , um, oil company has another system and the teacher's union has another system or something. <laugh> ?

Jhonatan Bringas: 15:47

Uh , no, no. The teachers unit don't have another system, but I think that there are some small systems of the mining companies, but those are not really systems. Yes, those are not really systems, but they have their own medical centers, the places where they do mining.

Julio Martinez: 16:00

Yeah. The , the reason I call them systems is that , um, from the manufacturer's perspective, Jonathan, you have to navigate each , uh, vertical to get reimbursement, right? So that's the challenge.

Jhonatan Bringas: 16:16

Yes. This is why a manufacturer should probably find , uh, distribution partner in the country and not navigate it himself. It will be extremely difficult. You will spend a lot of resources and you might never win them back.

Julio Martinez: 16:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah . And it is a lobbying effort. It is a political effort. It is , uh, who, you know, friends? Uh, I guess, so my thinking will be that if a company that has a product that wants to be introduced in Peru, the lowanger fruit is the private insurance system, because there are more open to newer technologies. As long as the doctor justifies the procedure with this specific device will probably be , uh, reimbursed.

Jhonatan Bringas: 17:04

That depends on the insurance company. So the lowest hanging fruit is in the indeed. Uh , for instance, let's , let's put an example. If I wanted to bring , uh, the product of the company where I work kuta , if I wanna bring one of those respiratory monitors to Peru, I have to lobby this at different levels. So yes, I have to do it in at the private sector, private hospitals, and show it to neurologists or respiratory doctors, sleep doctors. But then I also need to talk to the insurances. They have to agree because one private hospital is receiving patients that are coming from different insurances. So they all have to agree that they will reimburse my product or the hospital will buy it, and then they will just build the insurance companies as a treatment. So that's another possibility. But I think that the best one is to come in the market with the insurance companies.

Julio Martinez: 17:57

Yeah. Yeah. Wow, interesting. So I guess I don't know what your thoughts are on this , uh, Unitan that , um, the Pacific Alliance and the OECD will make Peru a more competitive country in the regulatory framework, in the adoption of newer technologies. You know what I mean?

Jhonatan Bringas: 18:19

Yes. I think the Pacific Alliance , uh, if you think about right now, countries that are easy to navigate and countries that are difficult to navigate in Latin America, you basically are mapping the Pacific Alliance versus Mercosur . So the difficult countries are Brazil and Argentina , uh, you know, and then the countries that are easy to navigate are Chile and Panama, Colombia, Mexico, which are the countries that are in the Pacific Alliance. I think it has to do a lot with the vision of each region separately. Uh, they have a different vision. While the Pacific Alliance is trying to be very open , uh, the ME sewer is putting a lot of regulatory disruptions, let's say, in the process of commerce, ization , maybe to protect their own markets.

Julio Martinez: 19:01

Yes. That's the key word , protectionism. Yeah,

Jhonatan Bringas: 19:04

Yeah, yeah. So that's how I see it. So I think Peru can profit from the Pacific Alliance in many things. Probably one of the things will come into healthcare very soon, because after this Covid pandemic, I think the Pacific Alliance has the responsibility to address the situation with their members and find a common ground in a new global way of public health.

Julio Martinez: 19:25

Yeah. The Pacific Alliance is a big trend in Latin America, Jonathan. And it will make countries behave in a new way, in a more open way, more competitive, more business friendly. And also the OECD is putting a lot of pressures in all these countries. And coincidentally, Peru is the only country in the Pacific Alliance today defining the Pacific Alliance as member countries and candidate countries. I mean, member countries are Mexico, Colombia , Peru, and Chile. And candidate countries are Panama and Costa Rica. But Peru is the only member country that is not part of the OECD yet it has already submitted its application for the OECD . And I can't wait to see Peru being , uh, accepted as a member because it will really transform the country as it has been happening in Colombia , for example, my own country.

Jhonatan Bringas: 20:28

I agree it's going to be a great thing for Peru. They probably will start , uh, mirroring a little bit more the developed economies in the Pacific Alliance, like and Chile. And um, we're looking forward to that as well. It's also gonna help them a lot in the case of how to regulate and navigate their own regulatory aspects, which probably they don't really understand or know how yet.

Julio Martinez: 20:49

Hmm . Yeah. Yeah. And eventually the Pacific Alliance will create a single regulatory market.

Jhonatan Bringas: 20:54

That'll be amazing.

Julio Martinez: 20:56

Yeah, it'll be amazing. That would be like in Europe somehow. Yeah, I mean, they will first homogenize the requirements, which will make it easier. I mean, just one do ca for countries or five or six countries , whatever member countries they have at that time. Fantastic. And the second step, I guess is the mutual recognition. If I get approval in Columbia , the member countries will recognize my approval. So that's the way it should be.

Jhonatan Bringas: 21:19

I agree. I think that they've been doing this already with three trade agreements. The Pacific Alliance has been doing that. If they recognized in Chile, then they are using the free to trade agreements in another country. I think that they should do the same in the case of regulatory. It's gonna help them to acquire new technologies, but it's also gonna help them in the case of pharma, it will help them in the case of clinical trials, you know, it will be easier for the region to access on clinical trials at different pharma levels, which is needed to test in the populations of our region as well.

Julio Martinez: 21:49

Yeah, well said. That's a good point. Yeah. The Andan region, Columbia , Peru , uh, well let's get Venezuela out of the picture for now. KU and Bolivia, the Andan Pact , I think that's the official name. They already have what eventually the Pacific Alliance will have. They have um, homogenization of the requirements of the documented requirements, but for, I think it's for cosmetics and some food products or something like that. But , uh, they , I'm sure it is for cosmetics, which is a good step. I mean, it's a , it's an issue step and there's already free movement of people and there's a lot of trade of course, and all that. Anyway, so let's move on to other countries. I mean, what other country you feel comfortable talking about? Um, Jonathan ,

Jhonatan Bringas: 22:36

Anyone? Um , I've been very happy doing business in Chile. You know, the thing about Chile is that you basically bring your device, it enters and you have an onsite , uh, permission, which is your entire regulatory process. So when you have a partner that already can navigate , uh, national system, which is you completely universal, and the private system, then the rest, which is regulatory, that's actually pretty easy. And that allows your partner as well to just bring some demos to the country without having to deal with all these regulatory issues. They can probably leave a demo at a client and just for them to test it. I think the way of doing marketing of your devices is way easier as well, than if you just do it through brochures or pictures. You can actually implement a device and tell them like, Hey, use it for a couple of weeks and then I'll come back and you let me know how it went. Because you don't need any regulatory process. You can just do that. So I think I've loved to work in Chile 'cause we can just put things really fast into place and, and say, let's just figure it out and if you guys like it, we're just gonna implement it. And, and it's a sale. It's a sale being done very easy, very fast.

Julio Martinez: 23:45

Yeah. I think it's a self-regulated market in the way that the quality of your product, the stamp of approval from the FDA or the European Union, the CA is really what sets the product apart from the competition. The Chinese or Indian or Pakistanian products or Turkish products that sometimes get it to these free markets.

Jhonatan Bringas: 24:06

Exactly. It's enough that if FDA and the ce , it's enough. But you know, if you think about Chile, they are so open to new technologies. They're so open to innovation that, for instance, during this pandemic, they have been also in the lead of absolutely everything. They have been the lead of testing. They've been a lead of vaccinating like Chile. Right now, of course they have their third wave because they haven't really been able to vaccinate the amount of the population that they need to vaccinate to be more free. And they have given maybe too many freedoms to people, but they already vaccinated around more than 25% of the population, which is something extremely successful for countries in Latin America. And they do it because they implement technologies to be able to do that related to digital healthcare. They are early adopting new trends. While Latin America in its entirety was discussing what we're gonna do with vaccines, Chile said, which is gonna buy them. And that made a big difference. And I think it's the way they do business as well. They're not worried about risking in Chile and that really has made a big difference in the case of implementing medical technology.

Julio Martinez: 25:10

Good, good. Yeah. Yeah . I love Chile too. I I , I've been to Chile , uh, two or three times and I love the country. I love the mentality. It's considered a second world country, not a third world country <laugh> using all terminology. But that's a good way to relate to or to compare Chile with other countries in Latin America. Yeah, very forward thinking. It's like Costa Rica in a way. It's kind of a different from the rest. <laugh> , it's a Switzerland of Latin America, <laugh>

Jhonatan Bringas: 25:35

And you can see it in the amount of hospitals from this region that are in the, in the American economy list ranking.

Julio Martinez: 25:43

Yes. Yeah, ranking. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright . Ah , we're close to the end of the show, Jonathan, but I'd like you to talk about Kuta . Tell us about your plans in Latin America. What do you have? Um ,

Jhonatan Bringas: 25:55

So we, we basically developed a , this really cool product that is a path product, but it's not only a path , it is also a respiratory breathing sounds monitor that is a color combined with an SPO two device. And what it does is at the moment, we are doing , uh, apnea , uh, a diagnostics, whether it is central apnea or obstructive apnea, but we're going to be adding more technology in the future. So the cool thing of our device is that our device is basically a hardware device that is controlled by digital health solutions. And by doing that, we basically can update our device constantly and, and give it more functions. And because of its capacity of listening to , um, respiratory sounds and analyzing them in an algorithmic way, we can actually be able to diagnose, or let's not call it diagnose, but point and give the advice to doctors on specific respiratory conditions. And that's something very powerful right now in this world of automatization and doctors doing telehealth because we can do it remotely. So I think that our plans in Latin America is, right now we are , um, starting to think about distributors. I mean already discussing some of these things with my network and I'm always open to hear more companies that are related into the sleep medicine, but also respiratory medicine. We are open to first do some interviews with possible distributors and after that we would like probably to go to a couple of congresses in Latin America to show up our device, but also to just get into workshops and discuss these things together. And we wanna do this in a very scientific way at the beginning. And then we want to expand commercially when we have , uh, created a validation in Latin America.

Julio Martinez: 27:28

Very good. And what countries have you gotten the most interest , uh, so far?

Jhonatan Bringas: 27:33

Um, yeah , so I've been speaking with people in Panama. We have a really good distribution partner in Panama , uh, and Costa Rica. So Panama and Costa Rica are, as , as we just said, they are innovative. They are the candidates of the Pacific Alliance. Of course, I'm discussing things with them. I have a really , uh, uh, amazing partner in Chile that is just a very good company that have been , uh, led by young people that have , uh, innovation in their minds. So Chile, Panama, Costa Rica, and maybe Colombia will be the first countries to enter. And of course we are applying for FDA. So after that, probably the United States, before we go to Mexico, Mexico usually follows the trends of the us . So once we have , uh, created adoption in the US then Mexico will be our next , uh, target.

Julio Martinez: 28:21

Fantastic Jonathan thing . All right . So before we close, what would you say to the CEO of a company that is just looking or doesn't understand? Latin America has never been to Latin Americans. Just looking to expand to the region. What will be your words of wisdom to him?

Jhonatan Bringas: 28:38

I would say see a , a good event where you can go, there are really interesting events in the Americas where you can find many distribution partners like Hospital R or FMI in Florida. I will tell them as well that if your product is very niche, then you probably want to go to the Latin American society of something. If it's cardiology, cardiology, if it's respiratory, respiratory, see how the market reacts to your products and find a distribution partner, especially in the countries that are regulatory chaos, because they are the only ones that will be able to implement your product unless you have millions of dollars to <laugh> to spend in that. That's my advice.

Julio Martinez: 29:17

Excellent, Jonathan. Alright . It was great having you here and , uh, I look forward to being in touch. I'm sure listeners got good , some good wisdom from your experiencing Latin Americans specific Peru. I was so glad to hear your take on Peru because you're my first guest to ever speak about Peru, so I love the conversation. All right , Jonathan , thank you.

Jhonatan Bringas: 29:37

Thank you, Julio. <silence> .