EPISODE 79: JAMES OHNECK, CEO & FOUNDER AT EPOCH LASERS

Episode’s transcript

Julio Martinez: 0:00

Welcome to the Latin Metech Leaders podcast, a conversation with Metech leaders who have succeeded or plan to succeed in Latin America. Please subscribe on your favorite podcasting platform. Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast. Amazon Music is teacher tuning. I heard radio, Pandora. All these are

Julio Martinez: 0:20

Welcome to the<inaudible> Leaders Podcast, a conversation with leaders who have succeeded or plan to succeed in Latin America today. Our guest is Jim Nik. He is founder and chief executive officer of OCH Lasers and holds a US patents for his unique laser therapy device for treating chronic pain. So Jim, it's a pleasure to have you here in the show. Welcome.

James Ohneck: 0:46

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Julio Martinez: 0:49

Awesome, Jim. All right. I hope I pronounce your name correctly. I always stop difficulties, but, uh,

James Ohneck: 0:55

Close enough. It's fine. Yeah.

Julio Martinez: 0:58

Okay, all Jim, so I'm very intrigued with your experience in Latin America. Uh, let's start with your, uh, journey to the region. How you got involved, uh, with the countries, uh, that I understand that you started doing, uh, business in Latin America over Brazil.

James Ohneck: 1:18

Yes. So my personal journey actually starts, uh, before that, uh, in the days of my activity in the field of ophthalmology, I was involved with clinical trials that took place down in America, down in Mexico. And that exposed me to how friendly people were and how open they were trying new devices. And it always seemed a bit odd because their healthcare system, you wouldn't think would do that yet. The doctors were very progressive there in thinking how they can get advanced, uh, tools to help people. And so that kinda planted the seed for years later for me to revisit, uh, Latin America. And so several years ago, I had an opportunity, uh, with my laser and earlier version to travel to, uh, Brazil, a little town called Uber, little farming community, and talk to local veterinarians and some local doctors about therapy and what it could do, uh, to help, uh, cure people, uh, help animals, helped treat people in pain. It was a very fascinating trip for me. Again, I found just, uh, really wonderful people who were very, very interested to learn and very open minded about new technology. So you fast forward from those two experiences to, uh, maybe about three years ago. And I was introduced to some people in Ecuador. And, uh, this is at a location called, uh, and it's a stands for Temple of Self Ascension. And it, it seemed a little bit, uh, non-traditional, uh, for me, uh, as a, as a medical professional. And I said, Well, I'm gonna start to talk to folks more. And I participated in a, a little bit of a radio show, uh, for a while, and, uh, got to know the, the people that own it, and they said, Hey, we're very interested in your laser. Can you bring it down here? And we have this, uh, beautiful place, uh, where we invite people and we'd like you to come down and, uh, and try it and, and see if it helps. And we have a little room where we can put the laser in and we could. And that's how I, I got started there. And of course, I brought the laser down, had a great visit, and it went extraordinarily well. And, uh, they found there was a good benefit from it. And it was from that visit where I really got the, the, the start where I just happened to over breakfast one morning, say, Wouldn't it be great if we could take this high technology and use it to treat the indigenous people here in the country that have no access to healthcare? And that idea really resonated with everyone. And thus that we, uh, we went down the path. I'm starting this Linda and getting donors for it and I, equipment and training and education and now spread. There's, there's five clinics. So this is in, in a little over a year of, So really incredible,

Julio Martinez: 4:18

Incredible. Wow. All right. So let's, let's talk about, uh, what trends you see happening in, in Latin America today with socioeconomic or disease trends you see happening in or Brazil elsewhere

James Ohneck: 4:31

In. So, some very interesting trends that I see coming together. One is just on an economic trend and some focus on using Bitcoin and moving away from fiat currency to something like a Bitcoin currency within the country. And Ecuador is very highly focused on this to say maybe the dollar and the old exchange of money isn't necessary, and you're starting to see terminals go up, uh, where you can actually buy and sell Bitcoin at a, at a small terminal. So it's a very, that's a very fascinating macroeconomic trend. And, uh, one of the laser sales that I made there, I actually, uh, was paid in Bitcoin through it. So you have to be flexible<laugh>. And, uh, I said, Okay. And, but it, you know, in the process that at the time Bitcoin was still going up, so there were fees and things associated with it. But, um, you know, ultimately the end of the day, I, I did quite well with that method of payment. It was fast, efficient, and uh, you know, money comes, comes in the Bitcoin, you go transfer to your bank, uh, very quickly. So it was a very, very new trend. And again, these are things you wouldn't expect to happen. You would think these would something you'd see in not fascinating. And so that's one, one trend I see. Um, another more challenging trend is, uh, getting products in and out and the high tariffs that get put on a shipping product over. And so there's always ways to think about and be creative, how you can, uh, get product down there and keep the flow if something needs to be repaired, uh, to try to minimize the amount of, uh, headache that goes on when you're trying to sell the device. It's, uh, you know, a medical electronic device there. So you have to really think about that and, and how you're gonna move equipment in and out the country and do it effectively. How you gonna service the product, uh, this type of thing. Uh, sure.

Julio Martinez: 6:40

Well, now that you talk about that there are a few trends in the region where a lot of countries in Latin America have free trade agreements with the United States and

James Ohneck: 6:48

European. Yes. And this is helpful. The, the, the trade agreements you have to pay attention to, uh, depending on the country you're going into, and how open are they? And the other thing I I've learned is the, uh, geography isn't always like here in the States. So, you know, I live in Ohio, as you know, and I can be, um, Indiana, I can drive to Boston to New York, and I can be there in a very short amount of time. It's not so easy to fly into GU and then take a five hour van ride overnight to get to your location the next morning. So you have to have a little bit of motivation,<laugh>, and, uh, the jet lag isn't too bad, but the, uh, the journey is, is long sometimes to get there. Uh, so you have to keep in mind that, but I see more and more flights being added on, and so I see this trend to give access, more access, and this is very encouraging for me.

Julio Martinez: 7:48

Well, you're talking about two trends here, uh, Jim, One trend is the built up of infrastructure in Latin America. The region has traditionally been behind in infrastructure. And actually Ecuador is one of the leading countries in Latin, in infrastructure. Now, just for the listeners, education or information, they're not familiar Latin, but specifically South America, the geographical barriers, geograph challenges are immense because of the Andes. You have three mountain ranges, huge mountain ranges, huge, uh, geographic barriers between one place the other, you have to go up and the Andes to go one place to the other. So it is really, really is, uh, it's, uh, it's a challenge companies to move products around. But, um, but uh, yes, there's, uh, one of the trends is, uh, more infrastructure and more flight connectivity in Latin America, especially now with,

James Ohneck: 8:52

It's interesting that, um, on the computer side of things, uh, their internet works extremely well. And I always have a little bit of a joke to say their internet works really well when the power's on<laugh>, because

Julio Martinez: 9:12

Mean another

James Ohneck: 9:14

<laugh>. And, and so having been up in the, in the Andes and, and up in this little area where there's wanka and Pau in these little tiny cities, um, the power goes off quite a bit. But the, the bandwidth, the internet bandwidth is great. I can have video conferences all over the world without a problem. And it's a, yeah, it's a, it's very interesting. So as long as you have power, when

Julio Martinez: 9:39

It works, when it works, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's a challenge of dancing. You know, when I, I do most of my work remotely. I'm always traveling, especially Columbia, all over Columbia, Uh, uh, sometimes energy, I mean, power goes off. I mean, for many reasons,<laugh>, it's not a hundred percent reliable. And, uh, I, I can't think of an excuse to an us uh, client when I'm on a video call. I mean, what excuse should I give? Cause I cannot really tell him. Know, doesn't say power enough because hormone, Cause sometimes it does. I mean, it takes about an hour to go back.

James Ohneck: 10:24

This happens in California too, right? I mean, they have rolling power outages, so it's, uh, um, no, we're not immune to it here at the States either. So

Julio Martinez: 10:34

That's true. That's, that's a also offer. Yeah. In Columbia, in, in Barran, where I'm from usually I, I stay there and from Barran I travel to other parts of the country. So sometimes I spend, uh, a month in Barran waiting for my next to arrive something. So we go to another city, but sometimes it rains and just, and the power goes off. I mean,<laugh>, so he ran three times a week. Anyway, so let's, let's focus on the conversation things. So Jim, let's talk about, uh, what you're doing today. I mean, what's the, the, the scope of your involvement in Latin America today? I understand that you are involved in Mexico, I'm sorry, in Brazil, Ecuador, and you have plans to build another clinic in Mexico. Let's talk about the

James Ohneck: 11:26

Clinics. Um, sure. The really, the, uh, idea of expanding just comes from how quickly we were able to deploy, uh, these clinics, uh, into Ecuador and realizing the need. Uh, when this idea was first conceived, we thought we'd be treating 10 people a week, maybe, and 10 to the indigenous population a week. And all of a sudden, you know, within a few months, we were up to 50 a day<laugh>. And, uh, you know, that's when we designed the clinic, which went on very quickly, the structure for it, it wasn't like a us, you know, clinic. Um, it doesn't have to be a sterile environment. It's not surgery, it's a, a therapy. But, uh, it made us realize that how great the need was. So I think we underestimated the need and we underestimated how the populations would respond. Um, and their graciousness of saying, rec the recognition, our indigenous population needs help. They don't have access to a cvs, uh, or Walgreens. They, they can't go to the pharmacy and, and get drugs. They can barely go see a doctor. And there's so many laborers in the fields that are, that are working there. Um, it's just incredible to watch. And they, they need help and they're the nicest people you can, can imagine. And so, uh, what we kind of morphed our business model into was to say, how can we, we can't completely be charity. At the end of the day, we're a for profit company, and as much as we, we'd love to help. So how can we weigh these two things, the social responsibility in helping, um, against the need to, to make profit and sells and the things that we sell. And so one of the ideas and the approaches we've been taking, which seems to to work pretty well, is to say, Look, you can open this, this clinic, uh, but really the requirement is we'd like you to do 30% of your work, um, on the indigenous people that can't pay. And, uh, so we, we try to work with a, um, people that wanna do that. And we've been successful in that model, taking the, the doctors that are working in the clinics and saying, Yes, I recognize that and I do wanna help. And, uh, I, I recognize I can do this many patients. And then on, you know, Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays, I can do the indigenous population and, and that I can do both and I can make it work ethically and I can make it work for the population so that we're not just, you know, profit hungry and, and that we really wanna try to help both. And so it's a, it's a really good balance. And so we're, we're currently looking at how to deploy, if you're ready for this number, as many as 1800 clinics,

Speaker 4: 14:18

What

James Ohneck: 14:19

<laugh>? 18 hundreds? No, no, just in Ecuador, but, or yeah, in different countries around the world. But a lot of those would be in, uh, in Latin America. Um, you know, including places like Ecuador, Guatemala, Brazil, uh, Mexico, These are all places. And if you figure that in a little bit less than a year, we went from zero to five clinics, you know, really fast, uh, then, you know, it's, it's very feasible to do this. And we have some people that are really behind this idea. If you start doing the math and you say, Okay, if you can do as many as 40 to 50 patients a day, and you start taking that across even a thousand clinics, you're talking about 10 million plus people, 10 to 20 million people that you can help. And that is really what drives us. And so from a plans, from a C standpoint, we lost sight of we're of s that are to means of this type of, uh, device. And then to, to really deploy it in mass. If we can deploy it, mass clinics that do both for profit and indigenous people, we can treat a people. Um, and we quickly, So this is really our plan, and it made us think about other areas of the world. If we can do that in, in South America as the blueprint for it, then why can't we do it in the US with the Indian population here? Um, why can't we do it in some of the, um, Eastern European countries where they need the help? Why can't we go into Ukraine right now? It's such a, a huge problem and, and, uh, provide the technology. So this is really, um, one of those things that, you know, you can call it social responsible marketing, but it's not political marketing. It's truly marketing to help people and how can we help the most people overcome their conditions of pain? And one of the things we realized is if you have a person in pain like yourself, and you're, you have a chronic back pain, then you come home with that, at the end of the day, you're exhausted and you're maybe irritable with your family, um, cause you're in pain. So if we can get one person better, then their family gets better because suddenly the person's in a better mood. And so this is what we see happening in, in Ecuador, is the, the family units become happier and and healthier because you're, you're helping one person and that, uh, actually goes to other folks. And so this is our idea. So we're, we always say, we're not just about d deploying or selling a laser, we're about really helping people. That's kind what's, what's backing up? It's the people first. And, um, but we don't forget that we're a for profit company either, you know, So, and uh, you have to to keep that in mind. But, uh, I think the Latin American market has offered so much opportunity and uh, you know, it's interesting if you look at the, the technology, they respond, the indigenous people in Ecuador, as an example, respond so quickly to the treatments with the laser. And, you know, being an engineer and scientist type of person, I look for the hardcore evidence. And why is this, why are they getting treated better here? And I'm blessed to have two daughters that are doctors of microbiology, and I I ask them, Why do you think this is happening? Is it something, you know, involved in the, what's going on? And you, The most surprising answer, which is I think be speaking of positive things in Latin America, is that people know who John Hopkins is. They don't follow the, they're open mind. Not to say, say they're gonna try things that are super crazy, but their minds are open. They don't have any roadblock that prevents them from accepting the, the full value of the treatment and the communication between the therapist and, and them being treated. And so this is, I I go back to my beginning stable, asked them all my personal journey that I've always found in Latin America, how cordial and friendly and open people are, how the family matters. And, uh, what we find drives the volume in the clinics that are in Ecuador, our family, uh, one person comes in to be treated and then they're successful. They realize their cousin, their aunt, their sister, uh, their mother, their father, they all need to be treated. And suddenly it's word of mouth spreads quite incredibly. And, uh, this is the beauty of that, that, uh, section of the world I think is that that family value and, and their focus on nature, their belief system are all well open to certainly the wellness types of healing and technology

Julio Martinez: 19:33

And households are large. I mean, house, small house has 20 people and it has the brother, the, the, the mother, the father, the kids, the cousin, the, the, the grandparents, sometimes the great grandparents. So

James Ohneck: 19:48

It is as a, uh, having spent quite a bit of time in, in EOR and actually, uh, treating the people there, I was always amazed because they would, uh, uh, I, I don't speak a lot of Spanish by the way, which is another, you know, interesting topic, but I don't speak a lot of Spanish. But they would always say, I, I bring my mother, and then the next time they would bring their mother and then the next day they'd bring their sister. And as you say, suddenly there's people sitting in the clinic waiting to be treated and they're all related<laugh>. And so this is quite fascinating. So another interesting point very listeners is, okay, you don't speak Spanish. How do you do business? And Ecuador? It's, it's a good, it's a good point. And uh, uh, you know, I, I use Google translate when I can. I'm providing therapy for patients, so it, I have to get their feedback. So I, I have a, a note sheet of of phrases, uh, that I use, uh, to, to help what with that then, uh, but it's funny, as much as I practice speaking it, uh, they still don't understand me until I hold up the paper and they can read it, Have to, you know, a bit creative from a business standpoint, from a banking standpoint, there are usually multilingual people. So, um, it's not really, hasn't been a, a struggle. It hasn't been a demand to say, if you don't speak Spanish, you can't come into the, to the country. And I've lectured there and I've given talks and any medical professional usually speaks, you know, one or more languages. They certainly speak English as well. And, uh, they, they understand that the terms and things that are being used. So I really haven't found language as an impediment, even when it gets right to the patient level, to, uh, a, um, Indian and Ecuador who speaks little or no English or maybe knows two words. Uh, this Google translate is extraordinarily helpful and making some cards

Julio Martinez: 21:58

Sometimes struggle speaking Spanish.

James Ohneck: 22:01

They do, because dialects are different. Spanish and Argentina. Spanish and Ecuador is, is different than Spanish and Mexico. And uh, this I recognize by one of my children there, they double majored, one of their majors was in Spanish and they always, even my daughter had trouble when she went to Argentina. Fully understanding is saying, Oh, not follow what they're saying. So, but at least they have a, yeah, at least I have a family resource that can read<laugh> and help. Yeah,

Julio Martinez: 22:34

Exactly. That's, that's helpful. But even I'm a native speaker in Spanish and sometimes it's difficult to, to go to country like Argentina, they use different words, different intonation, the way they speak, answer, the way they write is different cuz they write as they speak. So it's the only contra in America where you find that. So it's interesting. Yeah. Anyway, uh, Jim, so any challenges? Uh, well setting all these apps in terms of regulatory challenges, obtaining market clearance for the products, for the lasers, um, license challenges to build the clinics.

James Ohneck: 23:15

So from a regulatory standpoint, this classifications of products are not, uh, ones that require, they're not class three implantable devices, that therapeutic products. So the ease of moving in and out as, uh, easier and also the people don't, um, the, the countries look at it and they try, try to follow the FDA trends. So, uh, at least in the Latin America community, so if the FDA recognizes something is not requiring a PMA, that they don't require it either, uh, there's sometimes electrical safety standards of things that you have to pay attention to. But again, it's a surge. It's not a surgical product, it's a therapeutic product. You're not doing anything evasive to the patient. Doesn't be, it's not used in a sterile environment. So, um, as long as you have your documentation or an order of what, what's necessary, uh, what, what's the requirement in the US for unique good manufacturing practices? You know, you have, uh, ISO 13 five, uh, manufacturing facilities, uh, making the product. As long as you recognize those things, you show that there's a level of, of safety. So we really haven't encountered any, uh, regulatory challenges just yet that we've been able to overcome. Now Brazil, it's a little bit, uh, interesting because they want product built in Brazil. Uh, so if it's a medical product of any kind, they would prefer it's built down there. And, and this is similar in South Korea, so it's not an unusual circumstance. And so then you have to work through the agreements, uh, necessary to uh, let them assemble the product there. Ande,

Julio Martinez: 25:04

Very glad to hear that you haven't really faced, uh, many challenges, regulatory challenges in Latin America so far. Um, Mexico is also challenging. I mean, let's see, well it's famous for being challenging. Let's see how it goes with cafe priests,<laugh>, eor. I've never had any experience with Ecuador medical devices, but um, it seems like a straightforward country from what I read and from what I've spoken with people, uh, about,

James Ohneck: 25:34

Yes, it appears to be very straightforward and there's not a lot of regulatory entanglement that you have to go through. So, uh, yeah.

Julio Martinez: 25:43

Okay. Very good. Excellent. All, um, Jim, so we're close to the end of the show and I'd like to ask you a final question about what would be your final words of wisdom. Uh, if you had the CEO of a device company in front of you, what would you say to him or company he or she represents, is interested in exploring Latin America?

James Ohneck: 26:09

I would say that it's a incredibly worthwhile, um, and lucrative market, uh, that the access is, is very straightforward for many of the Latin American countries that you'll be dealing with a population and people that are, uh, very, uh, friendly and, and, uh, very nice and, uh, that you'll find them very open to, to new technology and new ideas and trying new things. And that it's a, a really a good idea to try to pursue a business in Latin America. It's been, um, a work of joy, not just work and, uh, that, that makes it worthwhile. I worthwhile experience Latin and products. You'll very receptive people.

Julio Martinez: 27:01

Excellent. Thank you so much for being in our show. Today is being a delightful conversation and uh, I look forward to being in touch.

James Ohneck: 27:09

Yes, thank you very much. Really appreciate the time today. Thank you.